August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@MsNeis thankyou. My ex has seen some things himself and told via our child that have made him question the sibling at least. So there is that. As you probably know and may have experienced - the lies and smear campaign I believe have been off the chart. I already know a few things told directly to my ex and it's just horrible - as I know I'm a pretty decent person with nothing to be ashamed of - unlike the catalogue of weird and not particularly nice behaviour from them. I hope he knows enough himself now without me having to keep reminding of it. He'll never believe it ref the parent so I think your example explanation is ideal 🙏

@SkylarkDay great advice - thankyou lovely. Yes I think people have no clue when they don't have experience of this in their own family.

It is the default to think that you are either spoiled, dramatic or you've just got it wrong somehow. I've even done this myself! I think we have an automatic default to not believe victims ( if that's what we are). Even when I heard that one person had openly discussed sexual abuse from a family member, my brain automatically went to ' is that entirely true'. Now - I always believe anyone saying anything like this. I don't know why I'd doubt people historically but I believe it's really common.

@SamAndAnnie yes this is very true and great practical advice. I'm trying another therapy for my conditions imminently in the hope it may help. I'm also going to speak to the GP. I think I'm maxed out on pain relief options but I don't want to give up fighting just yet. It looks like physical distance may be coming soon anyway. It's scary as I'm so vulnerable and don't want to lose that safety net of help. But the price has become horrific I won't lose much if that parent is no longer close geographically. The whole things really sad. No one of us ever wants the family to be split, especially for kids / grandkids. My brain always goes back to ' what did I do, can I make better ' - even now.

When I was really well and stronger, I could manage this behaviour and it was not as bad at all; there was alot more respect and nice times- because I could just walk away. But I'm now pretty weak physically and this whole situation being so poorly has made me pretty weak mentally. I never used to be. And this has made those people around me so much worse that I actually feel afraid. If I wasn't so sick I wouldn't.

It reminds me of an injured animal and a pack of hyenas. Being unwell and vulnerable is terrifying when you're around this shit. They become so much more threatening emotionally.

Thanks guys 🙂

@User543211 'access to your children' who the fuck does she think she is....I am angry on your behalf. She has NO right to access and tbh do you want to her fucking them up as well.
If you see her in town ignore her, if she gets in your space
tell her to back the fuck up and leave you alone. Embarrass her, don't spare her feelings being polite. She is bullying you stop trying to appease her, it doesn't work not with mothers like ours. Sorry it's big girls pants time you have to get passed your fear xx

@binkie163 I needed to read that, thank you so much. This community gives me so much strength!

I agree with the vulnerability. I have had mental health issues (ptsd) and suffer chronic fatigue. My MIL thinks I’m weak and not worthy. These people are nasty. They don’t give a s**t about us and think they can use our vulnerability against us, making themselves feel taller by making us feel more and more shit. It just goes to show how self absorbed they are. Ridiculous because at any time anyone can become vulnerable, it’s doesn’t make you unworthy, only human…and that’s how we can tell us apart from these people as they aren’t human. I’m sorry it sounds like an awful situation. I’m scared about my own health and the level my c.f.s will go and now my others half’s family will behave. They already makes jokes about my fatigue and how it’s laziness etc.

Hi all,

My mother left our family home when me & my siblings were all under the age of 10. My father raised us, he sadly passed away earlier this year.
My mother chose a life of heroin and prostitution over her family. She took everything, we had to move in with another family not long after she left, my dad couldn't keep up with the court payments so had to sell the house. We went from living in a beautiful 4 bedroom house on the sea front to a 3 bedroom council house with 3 other children & dads new partner.
Life has been far from easy as me and my siblings have suffered and carried all the trauma with us through our lives. There is so much more to the story & so many terrible awful things that happened when we were so young but I could write a trilogy and it still wouldn't cover it all.

Basically I got into contact with her when I was 18, courts wouldn't allow any communication until this age. I have met her a few times at my grandparents house, she's always lovely when we are there. However on the phone and email she is completely different. She called my dad an alcoholic last time we spoke which hurt me a lot, she has also accused him of some other sick stuff I don't want to put on here. She's convinced her ex partner tried to kill her, & she believes we shouldn't delve into childhood trauma as it doesn't help anyone. She blames everything on her 'disease' & take no responsibility for the lives she ruined.

I am a single parent to a beautiful 6 year old and couldn't walk away from her for all the money and heroin In the world (I am not an addict, just making my point) I've struggled to navigate being a parent because the older my daughter gets the less I understand why my mother did what she did. My siblings refuse contact and will to the day they die. My mother thinks they will one day reach out and has made it clear she is going to continue fighting for us.

I've recently gone NC because of the way she speaks to me, she told me I need to stop using dads death as an excuse for everything. When I wasn't working when DD was a baby, she told me I was self absorbed and not a contributing member of society. (She was on benefits for 15 years) I'm finally starting to see why my siblings won't have anything to do with her. I wish I could talk to my dad, I have so many questions I never got the chance to ask him. I'm worried she is going to try and get closer to us now he is dead, I want nothing more to do with her. She is toxic, hypocritical & narcissistic.

I'm not searching for answers I just wanted to share my experience in a safe place. I read an email at 4am from her which pissed me off and I ended up blocking her. She was drilling into me about not keeping in enough contact with my grandad (her father) her words 'imagine him having to tell his immediate family that he doesn't hear from you, it might be depression but we still have to do what's ethically and morally right'. The woman's a cunt.

@Nastyaa It very much sounds like you a breaking the cycle with your daugher, which is absolutely wonderful for both of you.

I think you are doing it right to do NC with your mother and you have her figured out. Unfortunately, she did not prioritise you when you grew up and nothing good can come from this relationship now. Not even answers you so very much want.

Agree also. Plus it’s really not a coincidence that many Fibro/ME and CFS sufferers often have some form of abuse in their past. It’s often the physical symptom of long term held stress/anxiety and a sign of burnout. Trauma is often listed as a medical cause of these conditions even on official NHS websites. Health is obviously holistic, mind/body/spirit all interlinked. That’s why putting up with mental abuse of any kind is not good for health and your in-laws sound like uneducated ignorant idiots/bullies. But as you say, these people target vulnerable people because bullies are usually spineless cowards.

My advice is keep her blocked and stay NC at all costs. You and your child deserve better, especially after all you’ve been through. Definitely protect your own home/life from this woman and her chaotic toxicity and poison. Just because someone biologically gives birth doesn’t make them a mother. That title is earned by providing love, security, happiness and worth to a child. x

@Nastyaa alcoholism/addiction is a choice, it is not a disease, cancer is a disease. Both my parents were raging alcoholics.
They both got sober eventually, cold turkey, both expecting to be forgiven. They expected praise and support for sobering up. It's like someone expecting praise for not having been in prison! Their view is so warped they think they've done well.
Alcoholics/addicts don't change, they may give up the substance but not who they are. Being an alcoholic/addict or being 'family' does not absolve you of responsibility or blame.
You have the same access to alcohol and drugs but choose not to, not because you don't have an illness but because you are not an arse hole.
I found the adult children of alcoholics book and group really helpful. Your mum wouldn't know what's morally or ethically right it if it was staring in her face! Protect yourself from her, tell her to fuck off, she lost the right to tell you what to do every time she CHOSE the booze and drugs over you. Illness my arse.
Did your grandad protect you from her, take care of you, provide a safe place for you?....thought not, he can get to fuck as well.

I do think that addiction is like a disease. I think it probably starts as an escape from trauma sometimes and slowly erodes you from the inside out. I wouldn’t wish addiction on anyone. There probably isn’t anyone left inside anymore, it feeds off you. Awful, I’m so sorry. There may have been someone there in the beginning but they’ve gone now. My ex was addicted to smoking weed. Not on the same scale at all but he would lie and cheat and the addiction was more important than me and his small baby. It’s so sad.

With addiction, it's like with anything else: it's not your fault that it has happened to you, but unfortunately you become responsible for managing or putting it into remission once you are an adult.

I'm truly sorry for anyone who grew up with alcoholic parents, but addiction is a result of trauma and yes, people choose to drink, but addiction is an illness. It is part of generational trauma. It is not black and white. We might as well say to someone anorexic 'well, it's your choice' or to those morbidly obese, who use food to cope with trauma. The latter are used to being seen as greedy and lazy, but nobody is choosing to be three or four times the size they should be. Nobody.

It does not absolve anyone of their responsibility to manage their addictions and the impact they have on others, but for some things willpower just isn't enough. It needs treatment and often treatment is not successful. Ask anyone who's been to any kind of therapy. How long it takes and how many times they have had to take it up to work on the same issue only to see a tiny bit of progress.

Addiction is not and will never be a disease. Addiction starts with a choice.

I'm sick of people feeling sorry for addicts. They are selfish pricks who don't care how many lives they destroy and what's worse is they think their some kind of fucking hero for coming out of it and 'recovering'. My mum 'found god' & doesn't understand why I don't believe in him.

Whenever I have attempted to confide in her it always results in a character assassination, she gets quite nasty. She says it's 'passion because she cares'.

I'm not going to try and force a relationship with someone just because they gave birth to me.

I’m sorry but no one chooses to be an addict. People don’t choose to be nasty abusive pricks, it’s like the poster said, generational unresolved trauma. many of us end up as collateral damage trying desperately to break cycles. Some succeed and some don’t. A lot of people don’t even know they are passing down trauma it’s so insidious. I have sympathy for many but some of those from a great distance because they are toxic. The trick I think is not to demonise humans but to see them through compassionate eyes but from afar for some.

@Nastyaa my mum loved AA being able to talk endlessly about herself to a captive audience every day, as they all cooed and sympathized.
AA feeds into their victimhood its an attention seeking narcs dream.
I have seen family, extended family, friends and colleagues destroy themselves and everyone in their orbit with alcohol.
As an adult they are responsible for their choices but we also have the choice to remove them from our lives.

Where you said ‘people don’t choose to be nasty abusive pricks’ and are just passing down unresolved trauma - I don’t believe that at all.
My mother was/is a very cruel woman, but her own parents were the most loving, kind people you could meet. They didn’t have a bad bone in their body.
In my mums case it was almost like she was over valued by her parents. They loved her a lot, she could do no wrong in their eyes. That’s not trauma. She 100% chose to be a spiteful, nasty woman. She made mistakes herself and then made other people pay for it.

Sorry should have said people don’t always choose, there’s always many reasons and brain chemistries, narcissism, personality disorders etc.

I don't believe alcohol or drugs change a person's whole being, quite the opposite, it magnifys their character traits. Whether that is selfish, controlling, manipulative, weak, lonely, miserable etc. The connection between narcs and alcohol is well documented. They loose their inhibitions and filter, the mask slips.
That's when you see who they are and as Maya Angelou said 'when people show you who they are, believe them the first time'
We always have the power to choose how we treat ourselves and others, I choose not to shit on my friends and I choose not to have people that do in my life.
I have friends who drink waaaay too much but they don't suddenly turn into selfish twats because inside that isn't who they are.

I can’t handle alcoholics anymore after seeing it close up. My childhood best friend became an alcoholic from about the age of 16. When out as teenagers and young adults, I spent my whole entire social life looking after her, including many trips to A&E, her repeatedly going missing, and although she’d been like a sister to me since the age of 4, I finally had to go NC when we were 25. Via the grapevine I hear she still lives at home with her Mum, has never worked and is now seriously ill. We’re both 53. It was very hard to walk away but I couldn’t cope anymore as it was getting worse. Then shortly after that, my much younger sister started having serious alcohol addiction for about 15+ years and I was once again looking after an alcoholic. I kept wondering why it kept happening to me, especially as I’ve never really drunk any alcohol. Even when young, I use to drive to nightclubs and drive everyone home as alcohol just sends me to sleep & gives me a headache so not much fun.

In hindsight, I see maybe because I was always sober, responsible (& boring as I was often told), I got earmarked to look after everyone. I can also see I was once again jumping into my ‘caregiver role’ that my mum imposed on me within the family since an early age. Mum certainly expected me to deal with all my sister’s addiction problems over my own family needs, whilst she just offloaded big time onto me too, going on about the stress it was causing her & how it was affecting her health, whilst doing nothing herself. So maybe I was partly to blame for doing it, but in the end they all wore me out and that was a big reason for me going NC.

Now, my patience and tolerance of people abusing alcohol is totally zero and has been for years. I’ve had enough of it to last me ten lifetimes! I learnt the hard way nobody can help an alcoholic unless they decide to help themselves, it’s totally pointless! Plus alcoholics can be such dreadful manipulative liars.

@SkylarkDay I know exactly what you mean. My life has been torn to shreds because of addiction. First was my mother, then I met DD's father. The man who fathered me (my biological father, not the one who raised me) was also an alcoholic.
The only person in my life who tried to save me from these people was my late father, he died in February from a brain tumour. I feel so fucking lost without him. All he ever did was love my mother and try to help her, yet she accuses him of so many awful things. He was the only reliable person I had in my life, he never once let me down.

Must be so hard losing him, so sorry for your loss. Anyone with any addiction issues these days I avoid like the plague. It’s like banging your head up against a brick wall and so many broken promises from them. They’ll tell you anything to get you off their backs and towards their next drink!

@SkylarkDay My ex has been promising he will get better for the last 7 years.
My mother is sober now, that's great for her but the damage she has done is irreversible. Me & my siblings all have severe MH issues as we never got any support to deal with the trauma, we just 'got on with it' until it came out later on in early adulthood. It's why I'm doing my absolute best making sure my child never goes to bed scared or crying & that she knows she is loved & cherished. My dad protected me from my mother and I'm protecting my child from her father.

I still can't get my head around how anyone could walk away from such a beautiful life. We wanted for nothing, we had a block of flats, a house with a separate annexe, pets, money, friends, holidays abroad, then boom all gone. We got called 'poor' in school. People used to shout 'your mums a crackhead'. Both were true at the time but that's not the point.

I too won't go near an addict ever again in my life. They don't care who they hurt as long as they can get their fix.

Think I might need a bit of a talking to if anyone feels so inclined. Some posters might remember my situation, I've been kind of NC with my mother since new year when things finally came to a head regarding my stepfather's sexualised behaviour around me as a teenager. There have been a few messages in that time, mainly her trying to explain away his actions and minimise my experience, so far so predictable. She employed the flying monkeys a little while back and I then sent a blanket message to my mother and said FM's explaining one more time why I don't want them in my life to which I've had no reply from any of them.

I'm mostly glad they haven't replied but also struggling a bit with the fact that clearly none of them give a shiny shit and I'm finding those contradictory feelings difficult to deal with. I know deep down that there's nothing they could do or say to make this right so why do I still feel so hurt that they're not even trying? It's like I can't put any of this to rest without some sort of...idk, acknowledgment (?) from them which is ridiculous because I'm never going to get it.

I have accessed some talking therapy but my counsellor has gone awol, cancelled last appointment and hasn't been in touch yet to make a new one so I have all these conflicting feelings and thoughts and nowhere to put them for now. Life is hard in general atm, I'm peri, DH's business has just gone tits up so we have no money and he's really down and I'm really trying to hold everything together for him and DD so everything is getting on top of me. I just want to wave a magic wand and switch off these thoughts about my mother and FM's so I don't have to deal with that on top of everything else atm but I don't know how, I guess it's impossible considering how much it's hurt me. I just feel hopeless and it's scaring me a bit but I'm not sure what to do about it.

@Richandstrange Sorry to hear you're struggling I know what you mean about the ruminating, it is hard to switch off. I think the only thing you can do is focus on stuff you CAN do - help your husband with practical stuff with the business/funding a new job, take your DD out and enjoy free/cheap stuff together, that sort of thing. Hopefully the family stuff will recede a bit in your thoughts.

The debate about addiction being an illness or a choice was thought provoking. My sister was an alcoholic who never hit rock bottom and was severely mentally ill. She's dead and her kids will have their own traumatic memories.

However, my beloved mother was useless when my sister disclosed she'd been groomed into a sexual relationship with an older man in a position of influence when she was a teenager (rocking the boat wouldn't help my mum keep up appearances in her small town community, to mix metaphors).

My sister had a lot of therapy and a lot came out about her childhood (she was forced to move around a lot), mum being a narc and my brother dying. But it never seemed to really help stop her drinking.

And my mum used to actively do things to my sister she knew would wind her up. I and other relatives would ask her not to call her because it was a major trigger for my sister's alcohol/mental health episodes but she insisted she wasn't going to be "stopped from keeping in touch with her daughter" (I remember her martyred tone very well).

Meanwhile my sister was inflicting awful behaviour on her own kids - getting drunk and in trouble with the police more than once, going missing, at least one night in the cells. Awful mood swings and getting physically more dependent on them.

Mum was never any help, financially or practically, when my sister went on a bender and got in trouble, and used to leave it all for my other sister to deal with; my kids were really young at the time. She used to go on about making donations to the Salvation Army.🙄

After my sister died it took me a while to realise my own alcohol intake and mental health was suffering because mum was prodding at me the same way she must have done with my sister. It was my husband who pointed out the more I was in touch with her the worse my mental health was.

I think the whole personality disorder/alcoholism and depression battle is a really vicious circle in families and sometimes (always?) very difficult to dig yourself out that hole, although it's horrible it is for everyone round about you. The trick is to break the cycle which I guess what this thread is for.

@Richandstrange I know what you mean, they just don't seem to care, too selfish and are unwilling to change.
I honestly don't think you can rationalize it because it isn't rational, anyone who hasn't experienced it wouldn't believe it.
My mum wailed to anyone who would listen how sad she was that I was NC but never tried to change or apologize, god knows she had plenty of opportunity, more than I would give anyone else. I definitely felt abandoned even though it was me that walked away. I had to accept it is what it is, I can't change the past or my childhood. I either walk away or continue to be resentful and hurt. The feelings do pass, I was angry, I cried, I just couldn't believe how shit my parents were. However the peace that has replaced that constant anxiety was worth it.
The truth is we don't have families to fall back on in hard times, there is no support, it is an illusion we cling to.

@HoraceGoesBonkers the trouble with alcohol and drugs when used to cope with trauma is it becomes a much bigger problem.
Everyone rationally knows this, it is a choice well before dependence. Most problem drinkers know they drink too much.
Those of us that grew up in toxic alcoholic families have seen it up close, we owe it to ourselves not to take the same road. I do believe that generational alcoholism probably means we are genetically predisposed to addiction.