August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Twatalert I have virtually no one in my life. I mean NO ONE. I realise as this lifetime family dynamic all becomes horrifyingly clear that I have friends who have narc traits like mum. I have a friend who has no boundaries and I have very kindly and gently said that I found one particular action difficult because I'm x type of person ( it felt like gossip to me - I of course didn't use that word). I can see immediately that they got very defensive and shit themselves metaphorically over it. How dare I. It couldn't have been more nicely worded honestly. Another has a habit of gaslighting and some very unkind passive aggressive behaviour in the past - for virtually no reason whatsoever.
This is how it goes.

Are there people out there with great self esteem who have excellent boundaries and lots of friends?

I have a very strong feeling those people will not have many friends. There is a huge price to pay for this I believe. It's insane.

I completely agree with this.
There are people you love bumping into and people you would rather not see.
The ones that create that great energy, that you love talking to, and the ones the time goes by quite fast when you meet them are the right people. You come back home after the exchange happy.
The ones that you feel uneasy, the ones you need to figure out. The ones that you feel negative emotions after you meet them aren't worth it. Listen to your body :)
I have really good friends. I think this is because I salwayd create a "family" around my friends from early age as I wasn't happy at home and avoid staying there. In that sense I scared the dysfunction of my own home. My impression is that most people are good, we are the unlucky ones. Hoping you all will find good people to trust. x

*scaped the dysfunction

@Happyfarm I can't recall the psychologist but one prominent psychologist
was on a recent podcast and asked ' what is the number one behaviour trait of a traumatised individual ' ( e.g growing up in a traumatic family system).

Answer ( paraphrased)- they are always chasing after the approval of difficult people.

( Rather than avoiding the bastards or realising straight away to get the hell away! 🤦‍♀️🤷‍♀️)

I can totally relate to this

If I could, I would frame this post of yours 😊👌

@Twatalert that makes total sense! I definitely feel people rather than the surface appearance of whatever they’re saying or doing. Not sure if it’s due to my upbringing or maybe I’m naturally wired that way. It can be a double edged sword, but I generally trust my feelings now.

Oh my that was me for the past 4 years. I’ve been chasing after the approval of my partners mum. I so badly wanted to be part of this family. BUT I had got myself stuck in this weird dynamic. The mum I’m pretty sure has narc tendencies or some issues with relationships that from the outside are not visible. I know that her mum passed away very young and she has trauma from
this. But still she won’t accept me. I’ve twisted myself into a mess trying to be someone she will like. I had some great advice, I think from on here at some point. If she doesn’t like the authentic me and I have to turn up and be someone else then it’s not worth it. The rejection is painful, the fact I’m on the outside is painful, I’m sick of being on the outside of families. But the problem is hers and I accept this now.

It’s like we see difficult people as the ultimate challenge. If I could get this person to like me then I will be fixed. If someone’s mum likes
me then I was perhaps likable all along. But alas she doesn’t for whatever reason.

Agree completely. I’ve come to realise this is what my friend who was the mediation councillor meant when he said ‘nourishing’ relationships. You come away taking something positive from the interaction. And his basic advice of questioning a relationship if it wasn’t nourishing has been my benchmark ever since then. If detrimental to my wellbeing, then it’s best it doesn’t continue.

I think as you recover you see relationships in a much more clinical, cause and effect way, not just for yourself but others too.

@Happyfarm you can’t change the situation because the problem doesn’t lie with you, its definitely her. She has a flaw and it’s nothing to do with who you are or what you do. Maybe you’re with her golden child who nobody is good enough for, maybe she’s being territorial or jealous. My advice is be yourself and if she has a problem, just ignore it. Sometimes they do it to try and intimidate/bully, if you ignore this and don’t try too hard she may possibly get bored of this behaviour. With Narcs it can often all be a game in their head.

@Happyfarm also whilst she’s doing this and you’re trying to desperately please or fit in she feels she has total control, another narc trait. If you start taking the ‘whatever’ or indifferent approach, you’ll take this away from her. I know it’s not what you would like, but sometimes there is no pleasing some people.

I was going down the try harder and harder route and I’m sure she has noticed that I felt left out. Arranging family gatherings when we were away, not talking to me, holidaying with the other Son and his family and not us, etc etc. She is totally the opposite with the other DIL. I’ve no idea anymore and can’t really be bothered with it all. I make my calendar too busy. I don’t want her approval anymore because to be honest she isn’t that nice. I mean she looks really nice from the outside and it’s easy to get sucked in, but it’s not as nice from the inside.

Some times I wonder if I’ve over hyped the idea of family in my head became actually it’s not really what it seems. A lot of people have problems with theirs. I’ve got a fantasy view of it.

I think this is very accurate. I remember hearing ‘not many families are like The Waltons’ (if you remember/ or know that old TV series about an idyllic family). Also if people hear I’m not close to my family, it’s surprising how many others open up about their family issues. That’s another reason many hate Christmas, they are forced together with their families.

She may have homed in on your sister in law as she sees she’s weaker, easily manipulated and controlled. Or its just simple triangulation, narcs thrive on that. Like they do with their own children, they like to divide and conquer and play their kid’s spouses/partners off each other. She definitely sounds like she has many narc traits, especially with the being nice on the surface charm. My mum does this all the time, but because she’s a bad case, it only takes people a year or so to realise there’s more beneath the surface.

Honestly I’ve just come to the conclusion she doesn’t actually care about people. She has no ability or concern with how people feel, who they really are. The other DIL is an easier person than I am. She is more understandable and acts in a way more dependable. I am much more complex and she has no concerns with getting to know me.

@Pantaloons99 , omg I can relate to that too. How many times have I been kicked in the teeth by someone, blamed myself and gone back for more! We do chase the 'difficult' people. However, I also think we cling on because otherwise we'll be completely alone. It's not until you start making better friendships that it feels safe enough to let go of the difficult people. I've been in therapy a long time now and I'm still realising certain long-term people are actually poisonous to me. Bloody hell, we attract them don't we.

I have one that pops up periodically that I find very hard to shake off. She's an awful individual that has done some completely nuts things but I'm wary of the backlash if I tell her straight. I can imagine her going psycho on me. I also feel very sorry for her as she's oblivious to her behaviours.

It’s interesting isn’t it the friendship dynamic? In my 20’s I had a big group of friends and as the realisation of my family (my mother) dynamic being neglectful and abusive, I also began to whittle down my friendships. I found quite a lot of them seemed to carry the same traits as my mother.. I can now spot a narc a mile off regardless of how adorable they may seem.. I think growing up around selfish un empathetic people makes your radar really strong for those kind of people.. I’m rarely wrong about a person if I sense something off..

@Happyfarm it may be she senses you’re a bit more aware of toxic dynamics or a stronger person. The one person my mum can’t pull her tricks on is my brother’s wife. She’s a lovely person but incredibly strong and doesn’t tolerate fools easy. My mum is quite intimidated by her and its always been a pleasure to observe. Good thing too as she’s married to the golden child so it keeps mum at bay, plus my brother can be a diva & emotionally stunted (due to being the GC) so if he’d married someone weak, they would have suffered greatly. Families are so complicated!

I console myself with this whenever not having a family weighs heavily on me. What I have in my head how things should have been is not how families really work. So I guess I haven't missed out on as much as it sometimes seems I have.

I would love your invaluable advice. I am in such a desperate place I really feel hopeless....

I have very severe chronic conditions that are getting so severe I hardly leave my house or get
off the sofa. It's getting worse and the pain is so severe I struggle to think clearly. It also affects my cognition and I'm getting more and more impaired.

I have no one but narc parent and a narcissist sibling who I had to put at distance for safety. Since this time my mum has become a million times worse. As I am so unwell,being in her presence is so very difficult as the baiting and comments are now off the scale.

I moved my son away as my health is so bad - also his dad is a good man with a supportive wife and there are half siblings. It gets my child away slightly.
I see him occasionally and anytime he's here he sees my parent. I just can't stop that, but I hate it because the baiting comes through him ( he probably doesn't realise but it's so clear to me what she does).

I am trying so hard to keep him away from them as I worsen. I fear them at the same time. I'm so compromised I'm terrified. My parent used to help me but it became so awful that I had to just lock my door and accept I have no one here as I get more sick.

I can't psychologically cope what's happening here. I want my son's dad to keep him safe from this toxicity. I don't believe he would believe how bad they are.

I have to be nice to parent but it's so toxic now as I'm not playing along like I used to. I've pulled back and it's obvious. I have no strength to deal with it.

I don't know what I'm asking for. I feel so desperate with how sick and compromised I'm becoming knowing they'll convince anyone that I was the problem and suck my child back in.

@Pantaloons99 so sorry to hear you are not well and you’re struggling. The baiting and toxicity travelling through people is a problem. I spoke to my Dsis recently and she repeated various poisonous toxic comments my mother had made about me, my daughter etc and I’ve been thinking about how I will approach this with her. I’m seeing her soon as I do hope to keep some form of contact with siblings but have decided I need to be totally blunt and say please don’t repeat mum’s poisonous comments & remarks about my family to me. I’m healed enough it doesn’t hurt like it use to, but it takes away one of the joyful benefits of being NC and does impact the peace in my head. Plus it makes me feel I am somehow still enmeshed in their soap opera. I’m happy enough to hear her talk about my parents in general, visits etc, even listen & support her when she’s feeling abused or down, but I definitely don’t want any mention of my family or me by my mum being repeated. Is there any chance you can nicely ask for these boundaries from your son’s father? Say to him, I don’t expect you to see or understand how my family affects me, but the bottom line is they do. Make it clear you need this peace and space from them for your wellbeing, especially if you’re struggling with your health. Sometimes people from normal backgrounds just don’t understand why we need this space, so I think your only option is to make him see it’s vital he doesn’t let them influence him.

I'm sorry, your situation seems awfully difficult 🙏
I had written a very long response but I somehow deleted it! My main questions were:

• could you talk with your exH and explain the situation? It matters to him because it concerns your son. Could he (exH) be at least a partial ally to you?
• can you explain to your son what your narc parent tricks are? Tell him that you need to place boundaries (emotional at least) between you and them? Your son doesn't need to know you're trying to protect him from them (that's for you and exH to tackle), but he maybe needs to understand your own struggle with them.

BOttom line I think is (and I know how hard it can be): you need people on your team, even if it's just one (I mean irl). I wish you the best, honestly 💐

I wonder if we get into problems with relationships because we go into them with something we need from the person. We aren’t taught how to give what we need form ourselves so we cling onto people hoping they’ll give it to us. Only we often get stuck with the wrong kind of people who like people who try and get their approval because it makes them feel powerful. I think that is what is happening with my MIL. She thinks her approval is worth something and people seek it because then they will be part of this approval situation. I think she thinks way too much of herself. I’ve stopped seeking approval and I am of no use now because I don’t make her look important. I get approval from myself.

Pantaloons I know it's not as simple as this but here's my thoughts as a starting point.

You need better pain relief. If you can't think straight due to pain that's unacceptable. So book a GP appointment.

You can't do much for yourself so maybe you need a care package. I'd contact social services for an assessment.

If you haven't already, go minimalist, get a cleaner, organise some kind of food that isn't junk food but doesn't need cooking. Do you need an occupational therapist to come assess your home/you for adaptations/walking aids? Better after you've moved unless that's likely to be a very long time.

Part of what you need social services help with is to move home, whatever that looks like. It could be a mutual exchange of council/housing association home, a new private rental, selling up and rebuying, moving into a council/housing association home. You don't sound like someone who could organise a move without assistance never mind do the practicalities. You do need to be somewhere the estranged people don't have your address and can't show up though because they're contributing to your ill health and you need to put a stop to it. Maybe then you can prevent them having access to DS too.

@Happyfarm I feel like too. My husband has an amazing family though they aren't without their problems.
Many of the women I know have a difficult relationship with their mothers. I was listening to the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers podcast the other day and Matilde Crocini said she'd never met a women without issues with her mother. I'm wondering if it's some kind innate/prehistoric system to get us away from them and into the wild to breed. Also mothers would have still been fertile when their daughters were grown, so wanted to push them away to eliminate the threat of the daughter?! I've actually lost the plot.
Speaking of 'in the wild' I'm looking for advice what to do when I inevitably see my mother in public. I've stupidly been engaging with her and it's obviously gotten nowhere. She says she has apologised (she hasn't) and that I'm being unreasonable for not 'allowing her access' to my children. I haven't said that in any terms but I haven't initiated any meet ups or anything.
I'm so scared of seeing her. This is such a small town. Do I ignore? Just say hi? I always have 2 toddlers in tow so getting anywhere fast is impossible. What do I do if and when she approaches them?

Dh saw my younger sister yesterday and told me he had saw her. Then my cousin mailed to say younger sister was at my older sisters. I told DH I've cut them off and I dont want to hear if you see them. Im not interested in the slightest. Said the same to cousin. They are out of my life and I want to keep it that way so updates on them are unnecessary