August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Aww op I could have written this, feel your pain this was me too, so bloody sad hay, your siblings are the Flying monkeys ' just like mine, and yes I went nc with all for same reasons , I have wonderful extended family why fully understand, my children are my world, am so so proud of the mum I am and the adults they have become, take full responsibility and enjoyment,

I left home at 16, first baby 24, cried my eye out with fear, midwife was wonderful, she sat on the bed with me , I explained my fear, not knowing how to love this little one in front of me due to my upbringing, never felt love, never had a cuddle, never no kind words, always felt cold, lonely, so midwife god love her said,
Right missy this is what you do, ' started breastfeeding' she sat holding me, she said, you love your baby like your were never loved, do the opposite every time to how you mother done it and you carnt go far wrong, say 10 times a day you love her and this will come easy, omg 40 yrs later have a wonderful daughter have fantastic relationship with both children, love yous and hugs just come easy to us, honestly the best advice and God I needed it, but now I know how to be a good mum, kind ,supportive, cuddles, I love yous you pick away at , how could they be so mean so cruel,

When I had contact my nm said to the siblings, who does she think she is ' mary Poppins ' I took that as a compliment, not that it was meant that way 😀

I feel like I'm taking over this thread at the moment - I'm processing a lot of stuff at the moment!
I managed to minimise contact with my family and throw myself into a hobby/community for a few months and connect with others and feel better for a bit. Just wanted to thank @coffeelover90 and @binkie163 for their advice on the previous thread (March 2024). I think I am starting to understand the meaning of "flying monkeys" much better now and recognise them in my own life ("friends" of mine who were kind of "second-hand" as they were really friends of my mum - if I say anything less than complimentary about her they start up all the "oh but she's so lovely, you're so lucky, etc").

Something has just come up: Mum has invited me and DH on holiday in her home country. A few days ago she told me this, now she has told both of us, and in between these 2 convos I told DH and he immediately said no (he clearly understands something about my family and keeping them at arms' length).
During the second conversation when she told both of us we were invited, she went off on one of her usual bizarre rants about how her country is better than every other, and that's when I decided I really did not want to go on holiday with her and have to listen to her crap.

She has always said that the UK does not have any spas (despite all evidence to the contrary) so if you want to go to a spa you HAVE to go to her country. This time she said that there are spas in the UK now, but British women are stupid and only go to them because it is currently fashionable and they go to them for beauty reasons which are the wrong reasons and not for health reasons which are the right reasons and the reasons why people in her country go.
I've had enough of this sort of talk. Nobody in this country is ever good enough for my mother, they never do the right things for her, and even when they do the right thing it's for the wrong reasons- she will always bitch and snipe and nitpick and it is such a miserable way to live. I am sick of hearing it. She has moaned about things like this literally as long as I can remember: My earliest memories of her are of her bitching to me about British women and girls and then getting angry because I refused to join in (she always said things like "English women are fat and ugly," including calling my british paternal grandmother these things, and telling me I should not be friends with fat people). This continued for years and she still says some of these things so I'm sure I am not misremembering. Of course she would be sweet to people's faces and say these things behind their backs.
I swear that people.like.my parents are never happy no matter what others do, yet when they fail as parents they expect us to be happy with what they did even if it fell short of what we needed.

I don't want to put up with my mum's misery on holiday so next time she asks us if we have decided whether or not we're going on this holiday we are going to say no, however I expect her to get aggressive or self-pitying or something, just anything to get us to go with her (she always does - she cannot take no for an answer no matter what the question is). I fully expect the "friends" mentioned above to say things like "how can you turn down a free holiday?" but I have to remind myself that they are potentially flying monkeys and this could be a way of reeling me back in. I'd love some advice on how to deal with these situations: I guess the answer is to grey rock and avoid JADE?

@thedowntontrout my husband in same position, the man that brought him up is not his dad, 16 year gap between him and siblings, his sister had to have a termination (mother insisted ) so she could look after him. Whole family always knew but said nothing, he has no similar features to siblings and his parents took it to their graves. However husband is the twin of one of the boys his mum fostered, so we suspect that boys father. It used to really bother him but he never mentions now so I suppose like most things, time is a good healer xx

@DavesSpareDeckChair definitely do not go on holiday, you know it will be a nightmare, you don't need the aggro, just say no. Good luck xx

Op your saving grace is she doesn't live near you, think yes keep to grey rock, just aww something come up that week sorry, no more, keep it really simple, don't engage in the msg of disappointment from her, and yes ' flying monkeys ' light bulb moment hay, my pet hate is sm with the gifs, you only have one mum 🤢 or you'll miss her when she's gone 🤢 yer right if she was the mum from ' little house on the prairie '

@DavesSpareDeckChair My DM went on about people here being fat too! I used to think I could manage to go somewhere that's not her own country after DF dies, but then realised she'd spend the whole time comparing wherever she went to her home country and it would be hellish. There's no way my DM would pay for a holiday for everyone else though, in fact I think she'd expect to be subsidised.

The last time we spoke I said I didn't want any contact with her apart from about my DF. But of course sending my DH a card is TOTALLY different and not at all passive aggressive or trying to get in my face, right?

Courses so much trauma doesn't it, that sickly feeling, hope your OK thank god for cameras x

I blocked my younger dsis on everything 3 days ago and yesterday then she arrived at my door to give me abuse. She got told to leave and not darken my door again. I had archived my older dsis on Whatsapp so I hadn't got her message until now when I looked. Was yet more abuse so I have blocked her on everything too and have routed both siblings to voicemail if they ever try to get in touch again.
Now I have the issue of my mum and dad do I just stay away from them too as the risk of seeing the other 2 is too great and I can't cope. Younger dsis having not got to me was messaging dh today. I have told him id appreciate that if she messages you again I do not want to know if she does as I'm trying to help myself not hinder myself. He has agreed to block her on everything for me. I don't ever ask for anything but this I need

Haven't read the full thread but plan to tomorrow so hope it's ok to post. I've seen mention of this thread before but never thought it applied to me.

About a year ago my parents decided they wanted me out of their lives after I did something they didn't agree with (personal decision nothing terrible or illegal). Contact has been sporadic with M usually to start an argument. no contact at all with F.

Last month my GP was desperately ill and I wasn't told to what extent, I had missed a weekly visit, went the following week they were dying. M was there, told me I had no right to be sad, she was the only one who cared about him I didn't. This is not true. I left to avoid a row, she contacted me by phone to tell me not to disrespect her and how I'd 'caused a scene' then blocked me, only to unblock to tell me he'd passed (I did visit again when GP's other child was there so got to say goodbye)

I've not been allowed to be involved with any funeral arrangements and will not be in the funeral cars. I'm ok with this I think.

But it all just shook me how heartless she was, I just thought this was normal before.

She's tried to control my life since I was a teen.

She's told me I'm a terrible daughter and mother. She's lied to my DC about me.

She told me it was no surprise my ex abused me as I'm a difficult ungrateful person.

I broke down at work, we have a great counselling service, three sessions in I've accepted I'm probably not the problem here, the therapist has been amazing.

I feel like I'm crazy as I cry that I've lost my parents despite them being very much alive and not particularly nice. I'm getting much better but it's like I've had this weird awakening.

I'm rambling now sorry. But wanted to add where I am right now, hope it's ok

Hi all. It's been a little while for me and I've just been catching up on a everyone's posts. Fair play some absolutely awful mothers on this thread, it beggars belief.
So it's been 2 weeks since I told my mum I needed space and it's been awful. The guilt physically hurts and ruined my holiday this week with my DH and kids. I just don't know how to let it go. I know I should block her and I haven't, it's like I need to leave it open to see what she says, to get more justification. My brother has been a flying monkey. His relationship with her isn't great but he's fully in the 'she's our mum and she did her best camp'. He messaged me to say it's horrific to witness, she's losing her mind, he's worried she might 'do something' and now it's impacting his life too (I've always been her emotional crutch, speaking every day and seeing her a few times a week. Now he's having to deal with her it's suddenly unbearable 🤔)
She has messaged asking to see my children. Saying she's sorry, it's how she was brought up, she didn't know any better blah blah. This might explain her abusive language but doesn't make up for recent events and just the way she is on a daily basis. It's so hard to explain. An example would be if I said we couldn't come to hers for a roast as we were with my in-laws, she'd say something like 'have a nice time. Guess we'll see you next week now. The kids will have changed so much by then'. It seems so mild written down but it's the constant undertone!
I completely caved and told her I'd sort something out regarding the children when I'm back from holiday. I don't know why I said it. I just all feels so overwhelming.

@imnottheproblemitsnotme often something happens, maybe the final straw of many, and something snaps and it is like some weird awakening as you say. Often it’s when you talk through the situation and someone agrees and gives you the validation that the abuse is real, and you’re not the problem, you suddenly feel shocked you’ve never seen it properly before. Problem is we’ve all been gaslit or told we’re failures/ everything is our fault for so long and we’ve believed it. The first few weeks/months can be hard and a struggle coming to terms with how things really are and the reality of it all, but the way you’ve been treated sounds awful and you deserve so much better. Plus you’re definitely not alone as this thread proves.

@User543211 don’t be too hard on yourself for agreeing to stuff, they’re great at wearing us down, especially when vulnerable. We’ve all been there. Your brother is obviously not enjoying picking up the slack with your mum and trying to bully you back into complying with her wishes as he has a quieter life that way. Individuals in my family were the same as Mum viewed me as the main crutch/caregiver of our family which made everyone else’s life in our dysfunctional family much easier at my expense. Take some time out for yourself, it’s a bit of a rollercoaster ride when first breaking away and maintaining boundaries , we’re dealing with very manipulative and overbearing individuals x

Thank you. It's definitely that validation from a stranger that's helped, also the opening post here. There's so many worse off and treated so much worse but that doesn't invalidate the rest of us!
Thank you for replying

I'm new to all this, but I've done so much reading, this whole idea of 'she's your mum' or you only have one mum, is just a guilt trip.
My therapist told me there's only one type of unconditional love, that's from a parent to their child, the parent chose (excusing awful situations) to have that child, we don't have to love our parents unconditionally, that's earned

It’s easy to think other people have had it worse but it never makes anyone’s abuse any less valid especially from parents who are meant to protect and care. X

Good for you be proud you have gone NC with siblings, as for parents, could they not come to you maybe, but remember your parents enabled their behaviour towards as children, they are part of the problem, your trauma is because of them all, would you be comfortable telling your parents how you feel, is it too big to draining for you,would they understand, would they have any compassion, could they become ' flying monkeys ' could they promise not to mention them when visiting, you have to consider this, your time spent with them will it be healthy or add to your trauma,
My experience with golden child, they never seen my trauma, didn't have any compassion, would roll eyes or change conversations, so I stopped trying to explain, but they seen, they lived a different life under the same roof so me talking about the difference in up bringing, well never would they agree, might get ' oh that's just mum '
Sorry not sure how you move forwards with parents except very LC,
Give yourself sometime to think about it tho, we mourn what should of been what could of been if only, make your health a priority over them,

@User543211 I'm sorry it is like this and I totally get it. I know the guilt ruins everything and you haven't got a nice moment ever. I don't know what to suggest and don't even quite know how I got through my worst episodes of guilt. I think there's probably a lot underneath the guilt. Is it fear? Shame? Something else? It's so so hard.

Please know you can backtrack on your 'promise' to sort something with the kids if you feel able to. I know this would probably come with more abuse from your mother and her monkeys, but the abuse would continue regardless.

Agree with whoever said there is often a light switch moment and people get to the NC stage in different ways. Maybe that's your path for now... That you break NC and do whatever you said you wouldn't. You will try NC again when you feel ready.

I really do recommend to soak up any info on narcissism you can get ove and over again. I can recommend some tik tokers. Mostly people who have been through the same. More and more will stick, sink in so to speak, maybe it will help for 'everything to fall into place'. Maybe it will contribute to a slight shift within you. Help lessen the guilt sometimes. Once the guilt lessens a new perspective creeps in. A life after NC with all it's opportunities for you and your family unit will appear. At first it's just a few seconds, then you keep seeing what you could have and then you get really hungry and think 'to hell with my relatives once and for all'.

It's a process and trial and error as well.

Mum passes stuff on even though she says she doesn't. I can't speak to them about it as she is dealing with ill parents and I don't want to add more stress to her even though she is part of my issues too. Tbh I probably won't speak to them about it I will just focus on me and getting the help I need

Reading through other posts regarding other family members and the way they behave, I think sometimes it’s unavoidable that we end up having to cut ties or go very LC with other family members as a result of going NC with the main abuser. The dynamics of a dysfunctional family damages everyone and often all relationships within the family are beyond repair. I definitely feel that’s the case with mine.

Thanks for all the replies. Does anyone else find they have to be immersed in it for it to stick? I used to read loads of narcissism, read this thread daily and it would be so clear to me and seem so obvious. Yet a couple of weeks of not keeping my head in a book and I feel like I'm losing grip on what exactly is wrong, falling into the 'maybe it wasn't so bad' cycle.
I'm going to check in here more often and start a new book. Also keen for any social media recommendations of anyone has any.@Twatalertthe tiktok ones would be fab, thanks 🙏

Totally this

@User543211 I think in the early days it definitely helped to keep immersed, validated and reminded of the behaviour of a dysfunctional family. It keeps it real. We’ve been programmed to make excuses, feel it’s our fault and gaslit to think we’re overreacting. We need reminders initially when first coming out of it that the reality is actually very different and the abuse and manipulation is not acceptable and it’s not our fault. It’s almost like weaning ourselves off of the abuse so we can finally break free.

@User543211 in a way studying narcissism helped me. A lot actually. And I like tiktok for it because videos are short and I read a lot of the comments. Often I think 'well, this doesn't apply to my mother' and upon hearing it the 100th time I realise it actually does.

Some are also quite good at explaining what narcissism does to the victims.

What it didn't do for me was helping with the embodied symptoms of trauma, such as guilt, panic attacks etc. I really need my therapist to help me solve this.

I'll post some of the accounts I follow tomorrow or so.

Hi all, I'm new here and relate to a lot of what's been said My issue is that I have worked through my past, now have a good relationship with DM and understand why she was the way she was. However my brother cannot accept it and has recently gone NC with her and me (me by association, I don't think he thinks I've done anything but could be wrong). I know he shouldn't have to accept it and understand NC might be best for him, but does anyone have any advice for the stuck in the middle person? (Fully prepared to be told the must be more to it and I must be also part of the problem but I really think it's just the association, obvs I want him to work through it like I have but I don't really blame him if he can't)

@Burnerz It is possible that your brother has had a different childhood experience from you. That you both were treated differently in plain sight. I actually think it is very likely. Also, whatever happened may have affected him differently. Id work on respecting his NC position. It doesn't come across to me as though you have fully accepted it. There seems to be an element of 'he should/could, or I wish he would' etc.

If I was your brother I would 100pc sense this. He probably needs validation and for you to accept his version unconditionally. Because only he has the monopoly on his childhood experience. You get no say in it and are not to judge.

Because he is NC with both of you you aren't really in the middle. You are at totally separate ends of the string. And I assume he hasn't shared his reasons with you or they weren't understood, so this leaves some uncertainty for you but this is on you to come to terms with. He will have thought through the relationship he had or would have or not have with you and this is his decision.

Thank you @Twatalert . You're right I haven't come to terms with him being NC with me - I would 100pc accept it about parents but I can't understand why me as well - I'd always thought we were in it together, so to speak. But you're right his experience is different to mine and I know I need to work on this aspect. I feel like he helped me get through childhood but maybe he feels I was an additional burden for him.

For those who have chosen to go NC themselves, especially with siblings in context of rubbish parents, is the right response to just not contact them at all? Or an email every few months to try to keep the door open is ok?