August 2024 - But we took you to Stately Homes!

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007.

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwaite
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Pantaloons99 good luck. I can imagine what this is like going into this. Maybe plan something nice for you at home as self care once you are back from the BBQ.

Good luck Pantaloons99, although I wouldn't offer an explanation/excuse "Can you repeat that, I didn't catch it?" "What do you mean by that?"

Can you fake bright and cheery?

When they make their "jokes" /insults join in with a laugh and cheery and say things like "I know right?" Or "ooohhhh yeah guys, you better be careful!"(to the flip out one for example)Or "Thanks! It's great " then move on to pass the salt or another topic. Like it's nothing.It tends to confuse the crap out of people and it either takes the wind out of their sails or they cross the line into actually being a dick and everyone can see/hear.

They're looking for anger, upset, sadness any negative emotion from you really. Agreement and happiness doesn't give them what they want .

Btw , I know it's not the proper adult and healthy way to deal with things , but it works for me. I need to grow up at some point.

NowImNotDoingIt - I was reading a thread where a poster was describing how her exH would say really unpleasant things about her and she would respond with something like "Ha ha, yeah you're probably right" and it took the wind right out of his sails...

@Pantaloons99 good luck 💐
I thinkl it's a great idea to plan something rewarding/restoring for afterwards, as the others have said.
If all else fails, are you a reader? Could you imagine them as characters of Austen? She has this brilliant capacity for hilarious character assassination (Mr. Collins, hi there). Oh... I've survived many family gatherings just listening to a very Austenian narrator in my head...
🍀🍀🍀

Oh god, I'll keep this in mind for a work setting. Shame I can't go NC with people at work lol!!

Thanks for still keeping this going. I need changed but followed you for a while. Changed my name in case its too outing. Thanks a million, I will post soon once I catch up with all comments. You help me lots by posting here x

@Pantaloons99 I am quite confrontational by nature so I try and keep my responses short to avoid my getting aggressive. My absolute favorite, family, friends and husband know this response and it sparks fear into everyone when I do it, a really hard stare and stern ' I BEG YOUR PARDON' reduces twats to burbling, it just shuts the conversation down immediately. My other stock answer [less polite] is 'are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just socially inept' if followed by ooooh it's just a joke, I reply with 'wow obtuse and stupid' then ignore.

I love using the Jack Nicholson response 'where did you learn to talk like that, in some Panama sailor hump hump bar, go sell crazy some place else, we are all stocked up here'

Tbh people generally annoy me so I'm not really house trained 😂

@Pantaloons99

Can you go to the BBQ for say an hour and then say you have to leave for a prior arrangement? Then you've shown up/done it but also have an exit strategy?

@Twatalert @MsNeis @Genuineweddingone @Pantaloons99
Thank you for your messages. I don’t know what to think or feel so time will tell. I do hate the feeling that people are looking at me and thinking I’m despicable, and they either don’t know or don’t care what you’ve been through - it’s the attitude that your DM was dying and I didn’t rush to see her (not in UK). I have not heard from anyone from her side of the family (not that I really expected to), and I still feel a bit out of sorts that I got a text during the night telling me she had died. I guess like it sound like I want it all ways doesn’t it?

FWIW I have spoke to her twice in the past few months (the second was just last week), amicable conversations with no mention of the past, and despite knowing she was dying she never asked to see me.

Her long-suffering lovely DP cared for her and I would like to send him a card but I don’t know what to say - any thoughts please? I think he’s a fool for putting up with her but that was his choice.

I won’t be attending the funeral but should I send a small wreath or flowers? I don’t think I would want to sign the card somehow. I guess I’m damned if I do and damned if I don’t.

Just send a card with "I'm sorry for your loss." As for sending something, first ask yourself whether you are sending something because you want to or because you have to/ what people will think. Then ask yourself whether what these people think actually matters/will have any impact on your life. If yes, you can do a bare minimum gesture and get whatever you feel most comfortable with .

@Airworld Airworld I genuinely don't know what to say because I have no idea how I'd feel in your shoes. I can imagine that recieving these news via text message was a total shock, and very unfair to you. Whatever your relationship with your mother (and you mention it was kind of cordial now), you deserve that something like this to be comunicated appropiately.
I don't know if it was an expressed desire by your mum that you didn't know how bad she was? Could that be possible? I know someone close to me who experienced this... (mom was a NM too). Maybe there's some kind of pride that makes them hide their vulnerability?
It's awful the feeling of being considered wicked: when I read that part of your post, I could physically feel the despair... I'm sorry, really. I would say though that you are probably preconditioned to believe this, especially in your worst moments. So take this feeling with a pinch of salt...
Re the flowers: sit with the idea. I personally think it's beautiful and can be for your soul too. But again, what do I know...
💐

@Airworld oh, and about your mother's partner, a card sounds nice...
Sometimes, social conventions are really helpful because they fill in the gaps for us, so maybe write some heartfelt but conventional message and let some time pass.

Hi everyone. I've been reading the updates and keeping up - I hope everyone is ok this eve and manages to find some peace this weekend.
So I've been 'nc' for 8 days now. She has messaged me 5 times, some are just random hearts or today a simple 'heart broker' sent at 4am. Reeks of self pity. Mainly it's 'I have no idea what I've done please explain'
The first flying monkey came last night - my order brother who actually suffered more abuse than I did. He still spouts the 'she is our only mother' crap. I told him that's where I'm at and to resort that but he really believes we've just had a stupid argument.
She also messaged my husband today and sent her husband into my husband's place of work! Again to find out 'what this all about'. So I decided to write loads of it down and I've read so many examples on here of feeling better when getting it all on paper but I just don't. I feel like shit. Do I send it to her? It won't change anything at all but at the same time I don't want her claiming she was blind-sided.
When will I feel better? I feel sick all the time at the moment. My husband's says I've been happier and more chilled out but I don't feel it!

@User543211 No, from experience, do not send it to her! It could get twisted and used against you and it will be waved around as proof of your cruelty. They don’t admit to what they do, so it achieves nothing. I was accused of being a bully and blaming other people for my problems when I simply told them incidents THEY had done to me and the impact they had on me.

Stick to your guns and don’t reply to any messages. You could put the reasons written in 100ft neon lights on their garden and people like your mum would still claim they haven’t got a clue what they’ve done.

@User543211 do not send it. Seriously from experience do not do it. It will achieve the opposite of what you want it to achieve. Ignore ignore ignore. Its so hard i know but you need to be as strong as you can. Trust me when I say I wish I could take back every single response over the years. It feeds them. It is their ammunition and their 'food'.
@BornIntoHell same. It really is so soul destroying when all you want to do is tell your side of the story but they dont care do they? They have made a decision that this is what the facts are and even with actual proof and evidence will turn things around. Horrible.

Thanks @BornIntoHell and @Genuineweddingone . I'm finding it so hard because we haven't had a disagreement or anything so to her/the outside world it probably does seem like I've done it 'for no reason'. I'm just constantly looking for justification and it's so draining. My husband thinks she must know, especially given that one daughter is nc already!
Next up I think there will be some medical episode. Her husband says that she's having panic attacks, not sleeping, beside herself and unable to function. Feel so sorry for my younger sister that still lives there and wondering whether to reach out to her.
@Airworld what a difficult situation. Take some time to think and be kind your self. No idea what I'd do in your shoes.

@User543211 I agree with everyone else, don’t send it. It’s so difficult and frustrating as we never have the chance to explain or make them understand why, but that’s because they are NM and will never see any fault in their own behaviour. What you are getting is pretty normal when first going NC, it’s horrible but seems unavoidable sadly. Ignore flying monkeys, they’re programmed to do this. Stand your ground if you’ve decided NC is the best way forward for your wellbeing.x

@User543211 I agree with everyone. Do not send it. She will still not understand, let alone accept.

Have you not tried to tell her your boundaries over the years and she still crossed them many times? Have you not tried to tell her what's going wrong and she didn't listen? It will be exactly like that. These people will claim being blindsided etc forever and if they ever acknowledged anything you couldn't believe it.

You feel guilty, but do not need to give reasons for your decisions to abusive people. You have done enough explaining during your lifetime and they don't care and do the complete opposite and violate you again. This is only an option with healthy people.

She left. I can breathe. I feel weird... and exhausted as I only got about 4 hours sleep last night.

@User543211 I have the same thoughts about my parents by the way. The final straw wasn't really worse than everything that had already happened. I too think they don't get it etc. think I exaggerate and will snap out of it.

But I got to a place where this doesn't bug me as much. I think it was important for me to bring up all my old stuff and understand how it affected me. With it an understanding of how healthy people operate developed and my whole system realised how badly abused it had been. So now I have my truth and tbh get reminded every day of how much my parents failed me. I also see them as sick people now who remain caught up in a dysfunctional family system and will never manage to escape and wake up.

In a way it is true and they do not fully understand the impact of their actions because that's just what narcissism is. They don't have the empathy and they don't reflect like that. But you cannot make them understand it no matter how often you tell them and how many different ways you try to tell them.

I just look at them now like a bunch of people that lock themselves into a cage and do not want to peek outside.

@User543211 I am pretty rude to flying monkeys. I am a fucking adult, I own my own home, pay my own bills and have a successful career, I get to chose who I talk to and spend time with. I don't tell them how to act, they don't get to tell me. The day someone else is financially responsible for me and provides the roof over my head is the day they get to tell me what to do.
I posted a link a while back by a phycologist on 'estranged parents' all victims wailing they have no idea why they have been abandoned. She says it's really interesting that they can provide no specifics, accept no responsibility etc they absolutely know what they've done but always twist it as caring! To the point of delusion. You cannot deal/reason with that mentality. They want what they want nothing/no one else matters.
It took 2 months for me to feel free after NC it took that time for the sadness, anger, hurt, resentment to subside and to embrace the calmness.

I understand the conflict between “do I send it to her” and “do I just stay quiet”. Too many times I have chosen the first option, which has been met back with abuse and absolutely no responsibility taking on her part. So I would have to agree with everybody else and say don’t send it, you know why you have done it and that’s all that matters. As you say, you’re the second child to go NC now, she won’t be absolutely clueless to why you have chosen to follow suit. She will just act like she is, hoping you will respond so she can deny your experiences and feelings. It’s hard, especially in the beginning but it will get better. I felt shitty the first few weeks, then relief of not having to tread on egg shells whenever I spoke with her or saw her.