Gaslighting H but I’m not sure he knows he’s doing it? Was I wrong today?

[MrsHelenHuntingdon]

My H is a nice person but had an abusive upbringing which affects a lot of his behaviour.
I have posted before. He has promised to change and that things will be better. I am giving it 6 weeks to see if things improve. If not I’m finally leaving.

I have recently been in therapy. My self esteem hit rock bottom and I was incredibly depressed. The therapist has helped me see that I’m not the awful person I thought I was, but that there’s been gaslighting to make me think this. I’m getting there now and much better than I was.

This morning - was I wrong??

I returned to work yesterday after 5 months off. This morning I was very tired and just wanted to stay in bed for a while. At 8am the kids came to say the dog had weed all over the toys in the living room and on the carpet. H had been up and downstairs for over an hour but hadn’t put his dog out.
This is typical of life in general. If I’m not there to oversee/do, then most house and child tasks will not be done.

I got up and I was annoyed. I said ‘why didn’t you put the dog out? I don’t understand it!’ he rounded on me instantly with ‘well your dog has shit in the house before, what about that then!?’ I said ‘well, yes if she’s ill or when she was a puppy’ and he really angrily turned on me with ‘well you can’t say anything, your dog has done it, how was I to know’ etc etc and ‘why do you always do this?? Why do you get up and start arguments and have a go at me?’

I answered that I hadn’t, but it was really annoying when I wanted to rest and he couldn’t even just let the dog out without me there to do it. He said he did open the door but he didn’t go out so wtf did I expect him to do? He’s had enough of me having a go at him etc.

Im now sat in my room crying (again) feeling like some awful nagging wife who just has a go at everyone all the time. The kids have gone with him.

I’ve been doing so much work on this and I was getting so much better, but now I’m just thinking it’s all the therapist being nice to me and that really it is me that’s constantly at fault.

Is it? I was really annoyed with him.

This, as above its the children I feel for in this. Separate households without all this drama and hatred will be much better for them.

A point of observation, @MrsHelenHuntingdon when you talk about his dog, and he talks about "your dog", what's that about? Like it's his fault how the dog behaves and then it's your fault how the dog behaves. Was buying the dog not a joint decision?

it seems you're both pointing fingers at each other, blaming each other and it has become a pattern, with the dog being a way of levelling criticism at each other.

it sounds like the love and respect has gone from your relationship.

Well it’s interesting to see how you can read things differently

The dog had the back door open - it’s obviously not trained properly or is unwell if it didn’t go out.
The dh says it was. It doesn’t mean it was. Plus as the family dig, he is just as responsible for the (lack of) training if that was the case.

husband was having a wee - not like he could’ve stopped the dog through the power of his mind is it
Well he has a dig. Dogs need to go out. It was up to him to ensure he was. By opening the door yes and encouraging him to go out, taking him for a walk (that dog needed anyway). The fact it happened when he was having a wee is oh so convenient but doesn’t let him off the hook. Because he should have taken all of those steps before hand.
The fact he goes on about the fact it’s the OP’s dog just shows how he believes he has no responsibility in looking after the dig at all. Same with not starting to clean straight away.

kid told mum - not really the dads fault he was having a wee so child went to mum
Or the child didn’t go to see dad because dad never steps up and sorts these things out. Or because child knows they are likely to be told off so prefers to see mum. There was one parent available close by. Why going to see the sleeping parent (surely they would know you dont wake people up) rather than the fully functioning one next to them (albeit in the loo for a whole 30 seconds)?

As fir the OP is sulking…
Im going to say the OP is taking time off to cool down. Which is exactly the right thing to do.
What is never the right thing to do is to carry on like nothing has happened and bury the issues.
What is also never the right thing to do is to have a go at someone who is slowly recovering from depression AND living in clearly difficult circumstances that they didn’t react perfectly so it’s all their fault . Thats victim blaming, nothing less. And that’s not pretty either.

As an aside, I’m absolutely sure you’ve never ALWAYS reacted perfectly or the idea of perfect that someone else’s has for you.
It sounds like your pov is influenced by your own experiences that have nothing to do with the OP’s situation. And by the fact you haven’t heated from it either.

Which is exactly what the OP is aiming for.

Thank you @DullFanFiction 💐

Just to note to PP.
The door wasn’t open, he opened it then closed it when dog didn’t go out. Then he just carried on with his morning.
The dog isn’t ill, it just hadn’t been out for 11 hours and needed a wee. And it’s his dog.
My dog is my dog - I bought her on my own, without discussing it. He works away and I get extremely lonely here by myself. That might not sound ideal to some people but I live alone in an extremely isolated place in his country with his family and I wanted a friend. So I just did it. It doesn’t affect him.

which is good, what's not good is encouraging the dh and dc to move away from their current lives near family, if the dc have a good relationship with their dad and his family, are settled in school under the pretence of wanting to properly try in their relationship, but to then 'ta-da' and leave while in the new place, knowing he won't move back to his family as he'd likely be unable to have 50:50 unless he stays in the new place.

Im genuinely bewildered at these replies. I am all over the place with trying to improve my life and feel better about things, I’m nearly getting there, and now multiple people on this thread are telling me that no, actually I just sound like a nightmare. I must be.

If you didn’t want people disagreeing with you, then no you shouldn’t have posted.

In this situation, you were in the wrong.
It is never ok to have a go at your partner, especially not in front of kids.

The only thing he did wrong in this scenario was not physically forcing the dog out of the door but even then, it’s not entirely his fault.
The dog is an outdoor dog and is old and arthritic and it’s going to have accidents.

Him physically forcing the dog out could have caused the dog pain or stress.
He did what he thought was the right thing at the time - encouraging it to go out but not physically forcing it.

He was in the toilet when it happened - not his fault.
It was the child who came and got you - again not his fault.
He cleaned it up.

I can’t see how you can blame him at all in this situation, let alone go and have a go at home over it.
Its honestly not ok.

The main thing is there are children in the middle of this shit show and they’re the ones who are going to suffer the most.

It is time to end the relationship and live separately so you, him and the kids can be happier.

In this situation, you were in the wrong.
It is never ok to have a go at your partner, especially not in front of kids.

Did you even read the OP?
I asked why he hadn’t just put the dog out. He then had a massive go at me.

I now think you are just being really unpleasant and obtuse on purpose.

It’s him that has applied for the job and he is well aware of my plans.

I would never trick anyone like that.

So he is aware you're leaving him after you move? Have you agreed childcare schedule as if you're planning on 50:50 this may impact your uc?

No, he is aware that I’m giving it a go but that if things don’t improve I will leave.
So no, no childcare schedule sorted yet and I won’t be attacking that today.

Does this really matter?

Yes of course and you were the one in the wrong.

It’s very telling when an OP refuses to take any blame for their actions.

You will obviously never say that you are at fault but surely you must see that this relationship is very toxic and the kids are suffering by you two staying together?

I would make a plan this weekend about separating asap.
You need to do it before the kids start school in September, to make it easier on them.

Well, yes, if you're thinking of the dc. It's not fair to uproot them, take them to a new place, 'here's your new house, new room, new school' then in a few months, 'well kids, actually heres another new house, new room, commute to your new school 50% of the time' if the plan is to split after you move, split first, find somewhere for to stay and where the dc can be when with you.

@DullFanFiction you’re clearly influenced by your own experience too - everyone is (obviously!).

I never said I always react perfectly did I? So why even say that - just silly, I can say the same to you. You could say the same to anyone.

Your whole post is whataboutery.

Op. Most people, myself inc haven’t read your other threads, we don’t know or recognise you . I understand a small number are very invested and either advanced searching or even in extreme recognise you, but it isn’t the case for the majority, we are simply answering based on what you’ve presented on this thread alone. This is why people cannot answer based on the wider context. There are millions of people on here, it isn’t a handful of close confidents

Christ. No wonder why you've had stress and depression, giving the worthless, lazy gaslighter you're married to! He'll be the death of you if you don't leave him.

I'd say "look, it's obvious you will never change despite promising you will. You're lazy, abusive and gaslighting and I don't deserve to be treated like this. You will never change, no matter how much you promise. I think its time we consider seeing divorce solicitors to smooth the path." See what he says.

What if you don't like the way he does things, and he doesn't like the way you do things

You seem to have taken this as part of a post which questioned your 'rightness', and made you out to be the nightmare he makes you out to be. That's not what I was doing. I was trying to point out that there are no official rules about how dog pee needs to be cleared up. He wasn't bothered about it, and you were, and whilst many of us would agree with you, there is no actual authority to tell us how to clear up dog pee. Probably most of us with elderly dogs have, at some point, been distracted enough that the dog might not get let out on its usual schedule. There is no authority to tell us the boundaries on this.

My point, which was in support of you, was that you prefer things to be different to the way he prefers things to be. You can choose to respect your own feelings, here, or you can join in with him, in disrespecting them. Nobody is listening to you: not even you. Your openness to the idea that you are 'a nag' is openness to the idea of supressing/minimising/dismissing your own feelings. It's a willingness to denounce your feelings as 'a problem'.

You sound really frustrated, including in your responses to pps on the thread. Is there a really FUCKING FURIOUS part of you that never gets listened to, and that you, perhaps, never really allow to speak/yell/scream in the way it wants and needs to?

My post wasn't as you read it: you saw the idea of the two of you simply having different preferences as a jab at you for being 'wrong', a justification of his 'rightness', and as advice to shut yourself up. It wasn't, but that does reveal how defensive you feel (presumably from having been repeatedly 'attacked' for a long time). My post was simply: You have feelings. You can choose to respect them, regardless of 'right' and 'wrong'. Can you see it that way?

Based on this one incident I’d say there is fault on both sides. He should have made sure the dog went out. You should have asked what happened with the dog rather than having a go (you use exclamations in your first post so assume you were clearly annoyed before getting the facts). That said I wouldn’t focus on this one incident too much. It sounds like the marriage is just over. You don’t need a reason/explanation for being unhappy. I would focus on making the split as easy as possible for your kids. Good luck.

What kind of moron doesn’t know that a dog has to pee in the morning when they get up?
What kind of moron is surprised that their partner is less than impressed when said moron has allowed the elderly dog to pee in the house on a carpet because they have not attended to the dog’s needs.?
The kind of moron who has no interest in having a good and equal relationship with their partner.

Am assuming that you're a follower of the ops threads as nowhere is this insinuated on this one? There's nothing to show of any gaslighting, he's lazy because he was in the loo and did clean up the pee?

@WhereIsBebèsChambre

There's nothing to show of any gaslighting, he's lazy because he was in the loo and did clean up the pee

OP was annoyed that there was pee on the carpet, and when she brought it up, he immediately blamed her for something else that had happened, that wasn't relevant. It's an instant dismissal of her feelings, and defence in the form of an attack on her. He didn't do what you seem to think he did, and say 'Bugger, I missed that, I was in the loo... I'll get it cleared up'.

You haven't understood OP properly, it seems.

He did a dick move, and instead of accepting it, he deflected and tried at length to explain how it wasn't his fault because he tried. Personally, I'm not convinced he opened the door at all, he just saw a way to defect more blame on the dog - any dog feeling desperate would be out like a shot. He probably does this whenever he is at fault, or makes a mistake. He has difficulty accepting responsibility. A lot of people are like this, and if it is coupled with a lack of common sense in the home, then it will happen often. He's not at home much, you are, so you probably see him as, to your mind, making a lot of silly unnecessary mistakes, whereas he is ignorant as to how you like things done as he has not learnt it through not being around as much.
He's not going to learn by being blamed, he is going to feel miserable and yes, got at, guilt is an unpleasant emotion and some people will do and say anythingto get out of feeling it. You could say he deserves it, but if you react to it the same way by blaming him, he is always going to be the same defensive, deflecting person in response and you will have similar arguments on repeat.
I would try handling it differently and see if it gets a different result. In this case, you could get the cleaning products, stuff them in his hands with a "oh dear, your dog, that will need cleaning up" - then back to bed to chill. It puts responsibility but not blame on him, and it teaches him consequences to his error - if hes not entirely stupid he will remember not to do it in future.
Next time he does something wrong, fight the urge to point it out in the moment where appropriate, and let the consequences of his actions play out. It's not straightforward gaslighting he's doing, more denyal to absolve himself of guilt. You can only hope for change by adapting how you deal with him. In an ideal world you shouldn't have to, but really it's a case of do the same and expect the same results, no harm in trying it.

you could get the cleaning products, stuff them in his hands with a "oh dear, your dog, that will need cleaning up

Terrible advice. 'How to train your husband'! Nobody is going to respond favourably to having cleaning products 'stuffed' into their hands, and told 'That mess will need cleaning up'.

So if you were downstairs awake with the kids and dogs and when you went to the toilet yourself, your elderly, arthritic, outdoor dog had an accident on the floor - you would be ok with your DH (who had been in bed this entire time) to come down annoyed and question you over why you hadn’t immediately cleaned it up (because you were in the toilet yourself)?

You would seriously be ok with your DH doing that?

What would you have said if your DH did that?

Would you have apologised for using the toilet at the wrong time and promised to not have it happen again?

Or would you get defensive because you needed the toilet and didn’t mean for it to happen?

OP admits she got a dog without even discussing it with him first and admits that it’s had accidents on the floor before - so why is it ok to start an argument over his dog doing it, knowing hers does it too?

I’m shocked that anyone thinks starting an argument over something like this is ok.
And I worry about the state of your relationship if you would find it acceptable that your DH would blame you for this and you would apologise for it.