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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Daughter is having first overnight with her abusive father tonight..

203 replies

SantaFeSister · 29/06/2024 20:18

How do you cope sending your kids for overnight contact with their father who is abusive?

Ex is very abusive. Long domestic abuse history and also abused DD as an infant. I left him and he took me to court. Family court for many years. Contact progressed very slowly now its at one night overnight. Dd was upset this morning and didn't want to go. She cried at handover. The court directed I may have a facetime with her on Saturday nights. I had this and she seemed in good spirits but told me she missed me and wants to come home tonight and not sleepover at daddy's.. he was standing there.
I miss her so much. I miss the smell of her hair, her breathing in the night, her sleepy cuddles (she still sleeps in with me) I've been slowly building her up by arranging sleepovers at friends for her to ease her in as she's never ever been away from me. I have seen her every single day of her life.

Does it get easier? It's the fact he's an abuser that makes it so very hard. I've kept busy today and met my girl group of friends for lunch. My best friend said I could stay over tonight at hers but I decided to come home as its just prolonging the inevitable.

Does it get easier?

OP posts:
Outwiththenorm · 30/06/2024 03:21

SNMummy2024 · 30/06/2024 00:55

Just my opinion.

Knew I was going against the grain big time when I posted my original comment and expected a load of angry replies!

Thank goodness we have the family courts, and thank goodness they look at all evidence objectively before coming to a rational decision. Rather than taking Mum's word for it on a Mumsnet post that a Father has been abusive before condemning him and denying him the chance to be a parent.

Do you appear on every mumsnet thread accusing the Op of lying about their situation or only the ones where abusive fathers are mentioned?

Copperoliverbear · 30/06/2024 04:44

I would go and get her, he would not be getting overnight care, he'd have to take me to court and if I'm totally honest id move far away so he didn't know where I was.

SantaFeSister · 30/06/2024 06:39

SNMummy2024 · 30/06/2024 00:22

Sorry OP but I am seeing things from the other side.
What do you mean by Dad has abused her? This is a very broad and subjective allegation.
I am guessing that he has gone through the usual process of supervised access, to the odd day here and there, for the court to have now reached overnight stays. This shows some dedication to his child on his part, and presumably so far everything has gone well?
The court has granted access, they wouldn't do this if he had seriously harmed her in any way. He is her Father, I assume he must have PR too, and unfortunately children say they don't want to do lots of things, but at 6, she has to do as she is told!
You cannot just go and get her! At this time of night, imagine the distress this will cause to your daughter! She may well be settled in now and, shock horror, perhaps she is enjoying herself. Or it may take some tume for her to get used to this new routine with her Dad, but you must at least give this a chance. It is her first night, she is bound to be a bit unsettled, that is the way it goes. No wonder she doesn't want to go, she is picking up negative vibes from you! But she may well begin to enjoy her new relationship with Dad if you gently encurage and support her in this.
If you do not follow that court order, and Dad isn't a danger to your daughter, you risk losing residency altogether. Extreme but it can and does happen.
So all those idiots above giving you that advice need to bare this in mind!
The court has ordered you to send her to her Dads. You have facetimed her so obviously Dad has allowed this. He could have refused if he wanted to be really spiteful.
You may well be working your daughter up as children pick up on parental anxiety. She is 6, and it is very normal for children to go and spend a night or two with their non resident parent at this age.
You, as her Mother, should be able to go a night without sniffing her hair or listening to her breathe in her sleep, she is not a six month old baby and it sounds as though your extreme attachment issues are making this transition even more nerve wracking for your poor daughter.
Your ex partner is allowed the chance to be a Dad. Even if he made a truly rotten partner. Lots of women forget this, when they conceive a child, that there are TWO parents and they are both as valid as each other.
Your daughter is not your sole property.
The courts have also decided Dad is safe and able enough to care for your daughter and that she deserves a chance to forge a relationship with him. Now you have that court order, try and put your issues aside for everyones sake.

Sorry but you have absolutely no idea do you. You're so unbelievably ignorant.
I will never ever support a man who strangled his own daughter and punched her mother in the face in front of her.
He had 4 years of contact centre. Various reports that said contact should not progress as he hasn't changed. It's due to the sheer bad luck of having a father bias cafcass officer that contact has progressed. Nothing else.
Maybe you should think about what you say to people on forums before you spout this useless advice.

OP posts:
Staringatthewalljustmeagain · 30/06/2024 07:10

I absolutely fucking HATE that the court has ordered an abusive man (who strangled his daughter) to have overnight access to her, threatening the mother with giving the daughter to him entirely unless she complied…

Two females violently physically abused by this man, and the court force it so he has access to both of them.

They’ve rewarded his violence and abuse and given him the biggest pawn to play with in the game of continuing his abuse of the mother and his ex partner.

I don’t know how anyone can cope with the injustice of that.

trextape · 30/06/2024 07:29

SantaFeSister · 29/06/2024 21:37

She's 6.
He hasn't changed in the slightest. He's abusive through and through.

and in reception?

LegoLegoLegoLegoLego · 30/06/2024 07:39

Oh I'm so sorry op. I cannot believe this is court ordered what is wrong with these people!?
What is your general situation, job/family etc. Some people would be wondering if they could successfully disappear in this situation I reckon.

Shiningout · 30/06/2024 07:51

Conflicted2023 · 29/06/2024 22:58

I don’t want to hijack the op’s thread but this simply isn’t like tv. You can’t stop contact because the other parent was abusive. And having loads of people telling you “I’d just pick them up / refuse to send” is really cruel. If that was an option op wouldn’t be in this position tonight.

I expect the op presented all the evidence in court. Court is officially there to put the child first but they operate in cloud cuckoo land. They think having both parents involved is in the child’s best interest and literally ignore evidence showing parents are abusive.

bide your time op, make sure you have a good solicitor and keep a record. Sending you a hug.

I always planned a low key but cosy evening for Sunday to help settle dc back in to home and provide lots of opportunities for them to talk to you.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread but this is exactly what I wanted to say. Pisses me off on these threads everyone saying they'd refuse to send the child etc - honestly if you have a court order to send the child you can end up in a load of shit and potentially even more time given to the father if you block contact. It's not right at all the system is fucked but this is the reality a lot of us are going through right now.

Ophy83 · 30/06/2024 08:07

EvangelistaSister · 30/06/2024 00:05

I would just never ever let this happen to my child but then Ive never been in that situation . So I apologise if I was overly strident.

And how exactly would you stop it when the contact is court ordered?? OP has done everything in her power, namely leaving him. But if she goes against the court she risks making things far worse!

Flipzandchipz · 30/06/2024 08:11

I’m so sorry OP. I can’t imagine how difficult this must be. And I’m sorry some pp’s have been less than helpful. The courts absolutely can and do get it wrong. I haven’t any advice I’m afraid, other than to keep strong for your daughter and any sign of anything out of line, get straight on to social services.

For anyone who might have questioned the validity of OP’s posts, the courts can and do absolutely get it wrong. Here’s some reading to aid your understanding, it’s a difficult read but I think if anyone assuming that the OP has in some way exaggerated any abuse and just needs to get on with it should take note bc.co.uk/news/uk-66534732

Child looking out of an aircraft window

Family courts: 'We kidnapped our kids from abusive dads and fled the UK’

Mothers are breaking the law because they fear court-ordered contact with fathers is unsafe for their kids.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66534732

SantaFeSister · 30/06/2024 08:12

trextape · 30/06/2024 07:29

and in reception?

Ok if you're going to be pedantic.. 5 years 8 months.

OP posts:
Ariel45 · 30/06/2024 08:17

There are some really unhelpful people on this thread who clearly have very little understanding of the family courts (regardless of whether they think they're experts or not).

I have worked in family courts. I have also written a PhD on the family court system. I saw a case where a woman stopped contact because her daughter reported that her father had slapped her. This was the second time she'd stopped contact. The courts changed residency to the father and he now no longer has contact as he was in fact physically abusing her. It took a neighbour witnessing it for the courts to take her seriously. They refused to speak to the child in the first instance.

There are so many cases like this. It's not as simple as 'you should stop contact, the judges will understand'.

keffie12 · 30/06/2024 08:23

What angers me most is that nothing has changed. I fled an abusive ex, 24 years ago after 16 years. I know I should have left years before I did before anyone said anything. Having been bought up in what they call affluent abuse today, I recreated what I knew as an adult.

I bought 4 now adult children into the world by him. We walked the fires of hell with the aftermath. I begged for help from the system. They wouldn't give it as we didn't fall into their stereotype.

Prevention turned to crisis, and my children had to spend a period in care, as i had, had a major breakdown.

The system is needed. The system doesn't work. The SS took the ex side in it all, and because I actively unwell, I fought them appropriately they hated my guts.

I got all my children home eventually. It took 9 years altogether to be free of them.

We came under the 1970s children act, which was barbaric. The children's act was rewritten at the time in 2005. One of the team on the rewriting of it was one of the foster carers for my children.

He said to me, " They had updated it as perfect as it could be. The problem was that the professionals would implement it properly. " No, they haven't and still don't..

They only started treating me differently when I met my 2nd husband. In my case, social services, there agencies inc caffcass were as abusive emotionally, as the ex, if not worse.

They didn't listen then. They still don't. They put children in harms way.

50 years on women's aid are clear that the surface has only been scratched on this. There are still 2-3 women being killed per week, and their children are damaged by seeing this. 1 in 4 women will be abused in their lifetime.

You can not just go against a court order as they will go against you. If you haven't been in this situation, you wouldn't know.

As for choosing the father of your children, carefully remark, Jesus Christ, how condescending and uninformed you are

I am glad you have been lucky. However, don't for one minute think it was caused of you being careful.

Emotional/coercive and gaslighting especially is a dripfeed that you don't see coming.

I use our lived experience now to support others, so good has come out of it. However, people like me who survive a system are few and far between as you're not supposed to.

All my adult youngsters are educated. Uni degrees, good jobs, happily married with children of their own. I am an active part of their lives and grandchildren, too. The ex isn't part of the 3 boys' lives, and my daughter contact is limited with him by all their choices.

The system is needed. The system still doesn't work, and it angers and saddens me.

When nothing changes, nothing changes...

ForgettingMeNot · 30/06/2024 08:24

This is emotional abuse by the courts. Your poor daughter. It will have a lasting affect on her.

Chartreux · 30/06/2024 08:26

Changingplace · 30/06/2024 00:29

I fail to believe the police wouldn’t care if you rang 999 and said your child is in the care of a person who is abusing them, and I know social services are pushed but shouldn’t they be obliged to investigate claims of child abuse, no matter who is being investigated?

So they'd go round there, he would tell them he is just having court-ordered care and show them the order, and they would go away again.

I would assume social services has already investigated what is claimed.

bibliomania · 30/06/2024 08:27

I've been there, OP. You grit your teeth and send her. You hope something positive might come of it - if nothing else, she'll know who he is and not have illusions. You listen to her and you go back to court if there's evidence that the contact is doing harm. And you wait it out - as a pp said, they vote with their feet by 12 or so. It's agonizing, but if they've threatened you with a change of residence, you've got to go through with it. Ignore the posters who are imaginary warriors in a situation they have never been in.

Iaskedyouthrice · 30/06/2024 08:40

Outwiththenorm · 30/06/2024 03:21

Do you appear on every mumsnet thread accusing the Op of lying about their situation or only the ones where abusive fathers are mentioned?

Yes to both. Sadly.

Iaskedyouthrice · 30/06/2024 08:45

I hope you are ok this morning OP, I cannot even imagine the thoughts that have been racing through your mind.
I just want to say I think you are incredible and the work you have put in to building your dd up to the overnight was amazing 💐
I think the family courts need a total overhaul. The abuse that parents can infict (physical, sexual and emotional) without it ringing any bells to certain judges is quite frightening. Makes you think.

daffodilandtulip · 30/06/2024 08:51

Everyone saying to stop contact is giving dangerous advice. The OP will have been through a horrific court case and stopping contact could lose her her children full time.

trextape · 30/06/2024 08:51

how did it go op? when is she back with you today?

when is EOW and one night during the week going to start?

Slattern77 · 30/06/2024 08:51

bibliomania · 30/06/2024 08:27

I've been there, OP. You grit your teeth and send her. You hope something positive might come of it - if nothing else, she'll know who he is and not have illusions. You listen to her and you go back to court if there's evidence that the contact is doing harm. And you wait it out - as a pp said, they vote with their feet by 12 or so. It's agonizing, but if they've threatened you with a change of residence, you've got to go through with it. Ignore the posters who are imaginary warriors in a situation they have never been in.

Is it always 12? Even when I’ve seen court orders lasting until 16?

Have managed to avoid court ordered contact with my abusive ex for all the devastating reasons mentioned above. The nature of his abuse it the worst possible, but as it was only alleged and unable to be proven (and DC didn’t repeat it) I had not a leg to stand on. What else can we do to change the system?

The only people pro it are - abusive fathers, and their deluded family.

OP at least he has eyes all over him now. He knows one even slightly dodgy move and it’s over for him. And your DD seems very vocal.

I was advised to put mine into play therapy? As if she mentions anything to the therapist they must report - and a third party report is the most powerful.

It gets better. It has for us. I’m hand-holding for you and sending you hugs and strength.

Shiningout · 30/06/2024 08:53

Some really good posts on here from people with actual real knowledge and experience of the family court system. I think this thread will be at least useful to some who trot out the 'just don't send the child there' crap on these threads. Honestly that's exactly what I'd have said before I went through it myself. The feeling of absolute helplessness and anxiety of knowing the system won't put the child first is absolutely horrendous, I honestly wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I'd be really interested to hear of people who have let the child choose at say 12 years old and if the father took them back to court - I'd hope by then the child could choose but haven't really heard anyone's experience on this.

trextape · 30/06/2024 08:54

@SNMummy2024 on another thread said

if I witnessed a parent physically chastising a naughty child I would keep well out of it.

clearly sympathises with abusive parents such as the Op’s ex

daffodilandtulip · 30/06/2024 08:54

Ottersmith · 30/06/2024 01:29

Will it help to make videos every time she protests about going? And recording the face times. I can't believe the Family Courts. They are such shits.

No. They will say the mother is coaching the child, and therefore abusing the child, and seek to give the child full time to father.

Andwegoroundagain · 30/06/2024 08:56

KaleQueen · 30/06/2024 00:21

Sorry, you’re wrong. OP will never be punished by the courts for putting her child’s safety first. This is something I was also led to believe until I was told differently by a good lawyer. Listen to the podcast link I shared further up the thread if you don’t believe me. Court have NO power to punish mum for protecting her child.

Well the OP said that Cafcass threatened switching primary residency so I'm not sure this stacks up. I think OP is trying her very best here

bibliomania · 30/06/2024 09:05

People asking about whether 12 is old enough to choose - my understanding is that Cafcass and courts tend to accept that a child has competency at that age, and also that it's quite hard to make a teen comply if they don't want to. It doesn't mean that the other parent can't go to court, but by that age, the child's wishes and feelings will count for a lot.