If you are a ‘professionally accomplished’ woman, how do you meet men?

[ElleintheWoods]

Just to pre-empt, I don’t think ‘success’ (titles, possessions and other things society sees as such) matters and everyone is the same. However, more and more, men and people in my life seem to highlight that it still does matter in today’s society.

In my 20s I was a top 10 university graduate working in corporate London with HNWIs, so I used to think everyone was like that and that was normal life (young and naïve, sorry!). I’ve had 2 significant long-term relationships (5+ years) and a few shorter but still serious and enjoyable ones. Never really had bad experiences with men.

I then took a step back and moved to the countryside. I’m quite a friendly and bubbly person. However, I’ve found that men see me as a bit of an alien once they get to know my background. I play my background down a lot now that I’ve found it can alienate people, but obviously things do come out once you get to know someone/ people have Google. I was in a long-term relationship with a mechanic and he would make ‘how the other half live’ comments as a joke regularly. He was also ashamed of his house and family initially. I’ve also had the ‘why would someone like you want to be with someone like me’ comment from more than one guy. Frustratedly, I asked a male friend why guys like him don’t pursue me even though they seem interested and he said ‘I’d feel like I’m punching a bit/ long-term I’d feel lesser than you’.

So it seems that although I was open to dating anyone, it doesn’t seem many men are open to dating a woman who is more professionally accomplished than them. I’m also from Denmark where ‘class/ background’ generally is a lot less at the forefront of people’s minds and it’s common for women to be dominant.

Then I met someone who seemed perfect. Committed to the mission of using his skills to improve people’s lives, had worked abroad like me, on the board of a household name company, very varied interests, deep thinker, similar childhood experiences. We had what I’d regard as the perfect relationship – theatre, shows, weekends away attending cultural events and exploring new places, good food, talking about ideas, philosophy, politics... I could be fully myself around him and share the same values. My favourite moment in our relationship was a few weeks in when he had a huge presentation at work and he called me afterwards and talked about it for an hour – it may sound boring but I knew then this was someone I could relate to. It also made me feel close to him that I was the one he wanted to share his accomplishment with.

Ultimately it did not work out but it got me thinking... I felt much more ‘at home’ with someone like that than where I had tried to force a relationship with someone very different and had to lock away parts of myself to fit in with their family and friends. So maybe it’s just easier for me to try dating men who aren’t ashamed to be ambitious and want to make a difference in society, and who like arts, classical music etc

So 2 questions to the thread:
1. If you are ‘professionally successful’, how do you feel that affects your personal life?
2. Where have you met men that pique your interest/ you’ve settled down with?

Thanks for your reply. Hmmm yes not entirely surprised by the tax element!

Hmmm yes I imagine London has a bit of a different profile. However, I do have a bit of a preconception of London men, purely due to almost every man I've worked with. There seems to be a 'London is the best place place on earth, anyone that doesn't live here is inferior' and 'I never leave London, what's the point?' attitude in industries like advertising or finance. I like humble, down to earth people that despite their achievements don't think they're God's gift. Is it just a stupid stereotype to let go or is there some truth to it?

I agree with you on lifestyle disparities with certain professions. I went on dates with two tradesmen that ran their own small businesses and a farmer. All were nice switched-on, educated blokes and it was nice enough. I'm willing to give almost anyone a chance if I like them, but it quickly emerged we were just too different.

For similar reasons I tend to be quite cagey around some friends. The other day I sat at lunch with two people who really dug into people that have a particular social characteristic (associated with privilege). Little did they know they were talking about me! I would like to find a partner/ more circles where I can be a bt more open.

Interesting technique, must try that one out! Although to be honest, 98% of cases I really do not care what their status is - most I meet are 50+. Nothing wrong with that but just too large of an age gap for anything other than friendship. My work friend and I were at a networking event recently and wondered if the men in the room actually all shopped in the same place as they looked identical. However, there was a Portuguese guy at the same event, and he certainly stood out for us both! But also left swiftly...

Like you, I'm not too responsive to similar conversation starters myself. Someone might ask 'so do you have a family?' I'm not sure they know how to follow up from 'not really' 😂I'm never really sure what a good response to this question is without making it awkward.

I tend to agree. I think the kind of man that dates high-achieving needs to be confident and at ease with themselves and happy with their choices. E.g. you could have a man who is a writer that makes just about enough, with a woman who's a lawyer that makes 100k+, but he wouldn't swap the writing for anything else, so he is probably happy with the set-up.

I'm not sure who are the men these days that would like a woman that wants to be provided for and not have a calling in life themselves... Although I am sure they exist! I do have a client whose wife doesn't do anything as such or earn money, but they are very much a team, i.e. she moves around the world with him, and organises his life, so I do think they have a nice relationship despite the disparity, and it works.

I agree on the being strict with criteria. I also was a single mum and with a demanding job just absolutely ruled out anyone who didn't live in my part of London. I didn't want to the travelling across London for dates. I also agree on shift work and other things like that. Just ends up throwing so many logistics into the mix makes any relationship difficult.
I also absolutely filtered on blokes that had kids ... I figured they'd get it. Because my kids are and we're my no1 priority and if they needed me for any reason I wanted someone who'd just understand and support me cancelling a date because kids were sick.
Also if they were a dick to their exW then that told me a lot too!

Hmmm yes I see what you're saying. I've gone on a few dates with guys who very accomplished professionals, interesting, nice to talk to, so a lot of potential, but noticed quickly that both were heavy drinkers for example. I wouldn't date someone that sees the need to get drunk (so not a glass but whole bottle by themselves) 7 nights a week.

I'd quite like a workaholic! I'm happy to see each other a couple of times a week but wouldn't want to go too intense too quickly. So while for some women it's a deal breaker and may have led to breakup, I wouldn't mind it.

Generally there are a few other characteristics that aren't generally well regarded that I don't mind too much. I know that I'm not perfect and have some annoying traits (e.g. competitive), so suppose there is someone for everyone.

Forgive me if you mentioned already (not sure if there's a function to see a particular user's posts) but what is your strategy/ outlook considering all this?

Question: When you meet a man, are you more heart or head?

I.e. do you filter it down to someone that meets your criteria and then see how that goes? Or are you expecting to feel something and only pursue it further if you do? Not exactly love at first sight but similar.

I've tried to be more objective in terms of interests/ criteria you have mentioned, but I don't seem to be able to bring myself to feel much for those people that look good on paper or pursue me. That's one of the reasons I'm off apps.

I am a guy earning a salary in line with some of the numbers above.

Personally I would only want a woman of a similar mindset/earning capacity as it makes things a lot easier and you tend to understand each others' struggles/challenges.

But like it has been said, having confidence and being satisfied with position in life is key.

Ah that's lovely advice, thank you!

He's a senior director that works on a different floor, but he makes a point of talking to me when he does see me. So it's not quite as easy to make conversation, but will give it a go next time. Personally I suspect he's single as he moved here from abroad and he's a bit young to be married with children, though you never know.

I think one of the reasons why he strikes up conversation with me is because I'm known for a particular hobby that he's very interested in (he shares lots of social media posts linked to the topic). I do think he likes me a bit as he seems to get a bit nervous when I approach and I definitely saw him check me out the other day.

I like his directness and constructiveness, and admitting to mistakes and apologising when they happen, he clearly has standards. We also debate a bit on email and teams as my team and his team work into each other. Maybe I can take one of these conversations further? Though I worry about taking up his time with chit-chat!

Have you seen the story of how the Starmers met? I thought that was really sweet. In fact, what they seem to have would probably be close to my ideal relationship, each having their own path, but also supporting the other.

What about younger men, in their 20's?

It seems like you might have more in common with someone in that age range and there's more of them available and single.

Plenty of younger men are attracted to older women (not in a creepy or gold-digger way...).

If they haven't started their "big career" era yet, they may have similar interests/tastes/education levels to you, but they will be a bit more flexible for a relationship. You won't have that "competing career" dilemma.

Perhaps someone doing a PhD or further degree?

I agree the market for guys in the 30's/40's age range is non-existent (to a certain extent)....They're either off the market or in the heavy work stage.

This might mean switching up venues a bit.

And how's your dating life going?

Understanding each others' struggles and challenges is very important. I do sometimes wonder about couples that haven't been exposed to each others' world/ environment - do they really 'get' the other person?

If you met a woman who would be at your level in terms of intellectual capacity but lower earning, e.g. artist, scientific researcher, would you consider them?

They seem soooo young though! I do have a lot of interaction with guys from that age group through work and often find myself referring to them as 'kids' even though they are barely 5 years younger. I tend to be interested in men in their early 40s.

Having said that, I'm thinking about men in early 30s now... It's an unfamiliar territory but I'm thinking about it!

What venues would you suggest? I do think bookish/ nerdy younger men exist so hopefully no nightclubs? Haha.

Out of interest, you don't have to say, how old are you, and what age range are you usually attracted to/ would date?

You have sooooo much to talk to the man from the office about:

• his home country
• him moving from abroad
• where he's moved to and how he's finding it
• the shared hobby

All of the above can be done in a genuinely casual and interested in people way, without sounding like you're trying to get him on a date.

Saying that, if he mentions any local landmarks or sights he'd like to see, you could get straight in there offering to show them to him, what with it being your local area

Word of warning on the office comms; keep flirty banter and innuendo off work systems, and strictly professional. If anything goes awry, you really don't want your emails being read out in a Tribunal (not that they would be, but hopefully you get what I mean!).

In my first professional job over 20 years ago the directors advised us trainees never to write anything on email that we wouldn't want appearing on the front page of a newspaper, and I've kept that in the back of my mind ever since!

Dating has been "interesting"!

Like you say, you need to understand each other. If you come from different backgrounds with different visions for the future, things won't work in my opinion.

Having other interests etc can work if they are comfortable in their position, however I do think that ultimately earnings does come into it.

Buying a decent house, kids in a great school etc need cash which is either important to both of you or not. You can't have one party who wants it and the other who doesn't as that is a recipe for disaster as I have found out...

I completely agree about visions for the future. With the last man I had a more serious relationship with, our visions of the future lined up 100%, which I never even thought possible. As a results we both probably tried hard to make it worth, even though about halfway through it became apparent we weren't falling in love. I feel like maybe if some events would have gone differently we could have been but that's another topic.

Even looking at threads here, there seem to be a fair few where one parent wants kids in private school and the other is against it, so politics/ principles probably need to line up too.

Are you rural or urban? As that seems to come up in this thread a lot.

Late 30's....not loads of time/energy to date/socialise tbh, but men in my age group are pretty rare on the apps.

Have a male interest from previous work who is exactly my age plus or minus a year (high achieving type) but not sure our lifestyles/values are compatible although the chemistry is there.

Attraction really depends on the person and the setting....we actually had some physical/technical project work to do together (a few years back) and this really bonded me to him? (he's good at it and super-helpful and really "present", which is a bit of a panty dropper for me).

However, he seems in the "stressed" phase of life and as I'm very keen on work/life balance and winding down a bit I don't want this. If I was staying in the same work line he might be a prospect, but I'm definitely not.

Single guys my age are pretty rare out and about tbh.

I'd say arty community venues can be good for younger arty guys.

Socially, there seems to be younger guys THEN a big gap where the 30/40 year olds are THEN retired/older types. 25 or 55 is your choice?

Not really overthinking this at the moment as things are so hectic, more building other emotional things in my life.

I've probably had PANIC MOMENTS at 30 and 35 (I think a lot of women do, as the media creates these odd timelines in our head).

But there's generally not a man shortage, it's just a matter of compatibility. If I get out there with a positive attitude I do meet Ok men.

I look the same (bit better dressed) as I do when I was 30.

Obviously building a longer relationship takes skills, but I find in real life if people put some energy and time into it (and no ludicrous expectations) they do tend to end up with someone!

Is he 'the one' then and right under my nose? 😂I'm not by any means very invested in this man, I just think he comes across well, looks nice and has noticed me. So in my head I've decided that because he always strikes up a conversation when he sees me, I'll plant myself in places where he has more of a chance to do so and see if he 'bites'.

The times we have spoken, it's become a very interesting conversation but usually gets cut short as one of us gets pulled into something by a colleague.

I'd only really get involved with someone from work if I really really liked them though because of the difficulties involved. But the advantage is that you do get to know someone quite well before deciding you fancy them.

Thanks, it's a similar message I deliver to people, so will stay kosher!

Have you ever had an office romance, and did it work out?

F

Do you mean rare overall or there are plenty there, just not the type you'd like? I've never actually checked the U35 category to be honest so can't compare.

Do you mean 'stressed stage' as in working very hard/ trying to climb the ladder and hit certain benchmarks? What other incompatibilities do you see? As he does sound quite promising from how you describe him.

Personally I find that a lot of men around here are single around 35-40 perhaps after a divorce/ LRT breakdown, and looking to/ ready to settle down at around 35. However I am a bit vary of the 'settlers', as I think I am a bit slower than most to decide I want a joint life, e.g. wouldn't want to move in with someone before 1-2 years of dating, and generally I feel that these men want to move fast. I know several men around 30-35 and they talk about being desperate to find someone and settle down, they are in genuine panic. Women are known to have the panic, but men certainly have it too.

I'm more relaxed about timelines but more focused on finding a person i am very compatible with after fitting square pegs into round holes for years. So I'm not sure I could be with someone that gives me an ultimatum after 3/6/9 months.

I miss the being in a partnership and sex elements of a relationship but I also know I'd be quite happy being single, definitely more so than in a relationship that doesn't fulfil both partners.

I agree with you about attitude and general apperance. I was in London recently, dressed in an outfit that gave me confidence and felt positive, and men certainly noticed and made an effort to strike up conversation and smiled/ flirted more than usual.

I look the same (bit better dressed) as I do when I was 30.

Love this haha. So true about style/clothes.

@MaxTalk Out of interest, what about a woman who had had a good career, but then left it to look after her children full-time (as her partner at the time was earning a lot) - who had subsequently become a single parent with a less stellar, part-time job?

I think this is a tricky spot to be in, and hoping potential partners wouldn’t disregard me as I no longer have big earning capacity… but sounds like perhaps they would?

@ElleintheWoods

its the common issue with people our age (maybe you're the same?) where we do enjoy life, have ambitions and the intelligence to achieve them (and I'm grateful for the conditions and the privilege to be able to do so)

...but this may make it a lot harder to compromise.

I'm very set on moving abroad, having a very quiet, country/hippy lifestyle, WFH 100%....quite introverted and don't really like a big social group.

A lot of things I have done and am doing are pivoting this way, and it matches my skillset to be very individual in my approach.

We have a guy who is committed to his work, has invested a lot of time and energy, unfortunately his work is not really transferable to WFH...So he has to be "in the system", and a lot of collaboration and networking and being linked to his colleagues....Which involves a lot of stress and mental energy, which will then spill over....

I've done the role as partner/dating guys with a "hard" (high social status) job, but I've grown out of it (suspect this may be linked to feeling I have enough status of my own now!).

Not that I ever was some "support person", but I just don't care as long as someone is essentially solvent and drama-free and we get on!

Maybe its an age thing, but I'm not really interested in engaging with the social dynamics of this longer term.

(and if being single is the result, I'm happier with that. I'm sure all the men aren't losing sleep over this, it's just what suits me ;-)).

There's a Minnie Driver quote (not sure how true) that she wishes sometimes she'd just partnered up with a plumber.

I'm not sure of a plumber, but someone with a flexible low stress lifestyle who works around me would work better (able to WFH too).

I guess "casual" might work. But then you can end up with hurt feelings/attachment, so it seems a bit dramatic just for some sex with someone....

Oddly enough I think the 35-40 age group looks quite sparse...but that's probably due to where I'm socialising and my work environment/patterns.

I guess there's the thing of feeling guys in this age range can be quite focussed on the pressurised Good Job (like my crush!). But I'm emotionally moving more into a relaxed phase of life and my socialising is echoing that.

Someone might ask 'so do you have a family?' I'm not sure they know how to follow up from 'not really' 😂I'm never really sure what a good response to this question is without making it awkward.

What is your thinking behind answering “not really?” It doesn’t make factual sense and, as you say, there is nowhere to go from it so you have immediately turned things awkward. If I had asked you that question it would immediately leave me feeling that I had been admonished for prying and I’d probably feel bad about that, and assume you had a difficult family background such as estrangement from parents, domestic abuse, death of a child etc etc.

Is that the response you are going for? I imagine not.

I’m afraid that people will innocently ask that question. They are often just grasping for a point in common and sharing stories about respective kids is a very easy conversation starter, it’s not that they actually want to know about you, if you see what I mean, they just want to talk about schools, kids’ sports, nursery fees etc.

Though a man who is interested romantically might indeed be using it as code for “are you available”? But you presumably want them to know your availability, right?

At that point are you already decided that you want no more to do with a person who would ask such a question? Or would you actually like the conversation to go forward, but in a way that allows you to protect your privacy?

If the latter I’d suggest you simply say in a neutral way, “no, I don’t have any children” then move the conversation on to the weather or the food or something. They won’t push ahead and start asking you about your relationship history.

Thanks for the insight, I am inclined to think you’re probably right.

Just it can be a bit awkward to be asked that question. Firstly I feel that the person asking is probably can’t wait to talk about their kids etc. And then when I say no, I feel like I’m depriving them from being able to bond with me over that topic. I’ve also had awkward follow-ups from people: ‘are you dating?’ ‘Do you want children?’ ‘When are you going to have children?’ ‘You’re beautiful, I’m sure there’s lots of men after you.’ The best one recently was ‘Are you a lesbian?’ 😂

We were in a group of 5 and everyone just burst out laughing as this was asked. I’d happily be a lesbian but everyone just instantly realised what a prying and inappropriate question it was. You just don’t ask people about their orientation at work.

The person actually came to talk to me afterwards to find out if I’d ever been married and why did it break down etc.

I’ve also witnessed situations where a colleague has been going through a brutal divorce at the time, and they’ve been asked. It’s really hit them hard and made them uncomfortable, I’ve seen people go to the toilets to have a cry.

So to answer your question, I don’t find the initial question prying, but many of the follow-ups can be. You never know what people are going through at home and often they come to work to disengage from any difficult home stuff.

Thus I much more enjoy discussing professional topics or genetic ones like the news, the economy, world events, travel, food etc. Thinking about it, personal/ relationships stuff can still come up in this context, eg ‘my girlfriend and I tried this new restaurant the other day’.

Yes I’m the same, I still have a demanding job and upwards trajectory, but I’m able to log off at 5pm most days due to company culture and really take time for myself, attend events that interest me, spend time outdoors, prioritise friends.

So would you say in your circles men are settled down by 30?

The guy I was dating (probably still a little hung up on him the amount of times I mention him) was very dedicated to his job with several business dinners a week and usually 2/3 days away as well. So a bit similar to what you say, I understood his lifestyle and supported him but also he wasn’t that available to spend time together whereas my evenings and weekends are largely my own.

I’d love to meet someone in a similar life stage, around 40, single/ divorced, comfortable enough to take time to enjoy life and see what’s next.

You are coming across through your posts as a bright interesting women. You have mentioned you are attractive.

I divorced in my late thirties (no children) and I soon learnt a reasonable answer to a reasonable question about why it ended.

I am ND so I can be (too) very straightforward and also an extreme over-sharer. So I do have to be a different version of myself when I am going on first dates or chatting to people I don't know.

Reading between the lines (and unopened) has also picked up on this - you seem to have possibly some unresolved/ongoing issues around family etc? Asking people about their children/families is the most benign of topics. Most people consider their families very important aspects of their lives.
You not wanting to mention anything of that nature is strange.
You are also neuro-diverse?
I didn't get diagnosed until a few years ago and it explains my slight disconnect with the rest of the NT human race and why I struggle with relationships as actually they don't really suit me, despite being 'a good catch'.
Therefore the odds of finding that unicorn bloke my age that isn't married but wants and is able to have a relationship with someone his age who has a young child is so so slim. Cos I'm not sure my natural state is to be in a LTR even though I've had a few 'good' ones, I actually prefer being single despite the loneliness and the financial & social penalty.