If you are a ‘professionally accomplished’ woman, how do you meet men?

[ElleintheWoods]

Just to pre-empt, I don’t think ‘success’ (titles, possessions and other things society sees as such) matters and everyone is the same. However, more and more, men and people in my life seem to highlight that it still does matter in today’s society.

In my 20s I was a top 10 university graduate working in corporate London with HNWIs, so I used to think everyone was like that and that was normal life (young and naïve, sorry!). I’ve had 2 significant long-term relationships (5+ years) and a few shorter but still serious and enjoyable ones. Never really had bad experiences with men.

I then took a step back and moved to the countryside. I’m quite a friendly and bubbly person. However, I’ve found that men see me as a bit of an alien once they get to know my background. I play my background down a lot now that I’ve found it can alienate people, but obviously things do come out once you get to know someone/ people have Google. I was in a long-term relationship with a mechanic and he would make ‘how the other half live’ comments as a joke regularly. He was also ashamed of his house and family initially. I’ve also had the ‘why would someone like you want to be with someone like me’ comment from more than one guy. Frustratedly, I asked a male friend why guys like him don’t pursue me even though they seem interested and he said ‘I’d feel like I’m punching a bit/ long-term I’d feel lesser than you’.

So it seems that although I was open to dating anyone, it doesn’t seem many men are open to dating a woman who is more professionally accomplished than them. I’m also from Denmark where ‘class/ background’ generally is a lot less at the forefront of people’s minds and it’s common for women to be dominant.

Then I met someone who seemed perfect. Committed to the mission of using his skills to improve people’s lives, had worked abroad like me, on the board of a household name company, very varied interests, deep thinker, similar childhood experiences. We had what I’d regard as the perfect relationship – theatre, shows, weekends away attending cultural events and exploring new places, good food, talking about ideas, philosophy, politics... I could be fully myself around him and share the same values. My favourite moment in our relationship was a few weeks in when he had a huge presentation at work and he called me afterwards and talked about it for an hour – it may sound boring but I knew then this was someone I could relate to. It also made me feel close to him that I was the one he wanted to share his accomplishment with.

Ultimately it did not work out but it got me thinking... I felt much more ‘at home’ with someone like that than where I had tried to force a relationship with someone very different and had to lock away parts of myself to fit in with their family and friends. So maybe it’s just easier for me to try dating men who aren’t ashamed to be ambitious and want to make a difference in society, and who like arts, classical music etc

So 2 questions to the thread:
1. If you are ‘professionally successful’, how do you feel that affects your personal life?
2. Where have you met men that pique your interest/ you’ve settled down with?

If you are referring to my earlier post, I think you misread it. I was saying that the majority of my colleagues have partners who are professionally successful. A small minority have stay at home wives, and I mentioned that the ones who do are all late fifties/early sixties in order to illustrate that it is not a trend I see in the OP’s age bracket.

I did not say that men in their late fifties/early sixties tend to have stay at home wives. Plenty of my colleagues that age have professional partners.

Relationships break up for many reasons though. E.g. my ex is a brilliant man, and whoever lands him will be lucky woman, just wasn't right for me.

Equally, the couples I personally know that are still together after 40+ years aren't happy, they live completely separate lives and there have been affairs, abuse etc, but they have a nice country house etc together, so they just stay together...

While you make a fair point, I'd be more suspicious of a man in mage age range (30-45) who hasn't been in a serious long-term relationship. People my age, men or women, will come with some baggage. Equally, people grow after relationship breakdown, I know I have.

I wouldn't think it's all negatives.

Interesting. Aside from attitude/ being at ease with themselves, would you say there was anything different between your more challenging exes and current partner?

Do you genuinely think that having been in an LTR in the past is the same as having “baggage”? Surely that’s just life experience, unless they have kids or trauma from abuse or something?

Are you available for dating? 😂

I don't think ALL men are the same though.

Also, some smart people can make others feel stupid, whether intended or not. Think of Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory. I have certainly been in the company of people that want to flaunt what they know and put others that may not have the same knowledge/ experience down (some of whom are in my family). If some of your smart partner's friends are like that, it causes tension.

Thank you for your judgement! 😂

But seriously I generally agree with you, but like all prisoners would argue, "I'm innocent"

Let's be honest, divorce is generally a very personal thing, each is different. Normally it is the man doing something wrong, I'm the first to admit!
In my case I'd like to think it wasn't. I have a not uncommon job, that requires a dedication to it, but also takes me away from home a lot. I've always been honest and committed and never cheated during these times. However it's not uncommon in my profession.

My EW sadly couldn't cope with this and did cheat on me while I was away, and despite trying to sort things out, it wasn't enough, so we divorced.
I'd like to think I'm still a very good man. I do the best by my children that I can and try to maintain the best relationship I can. However, you're quite right, my career choice does make me less attractive a choice for somone who wants someone at home every night. However for some, this may work great, I can be dedicated to someone and yet they can maintain an independence of that's what they need.
Its all about looking for the unicorns right?!
I'm fully aware that I am a compromise for anyone choosing to be with me. It will work for some, and not for others! 😝

Hence why I was asking @Bluebird101 about some of the alternative relationship options and how they have worked for them.
This thread has been very interesting and valued not just for the op!

Yes I completely agree with you, perhaps my wording was off. Or my definition of 'baggage' 😂

But with an LTR come things like children, shared assets with ex, anxieties about getting into another serious relationship etc. I guess what I am trying to say is that people aged 30+ aren't as flexible as 20somethings and may have some non-negotiable ties.

Can you elaborate a bit more why it's intimidating? What kind of women do you go for and what are the clashes?

Nodded along to this one, a lot of interesting detail there.

I’d also say that both DH and I come from small towns and have zero in common now with our schoolmates who never left them.

What would you say are the differences? From my schoolmates I occasionally meet with one of the guys that moved to Zurich after A-levels and lives a similar life but not so much the others that stayed local. In my case living abroad/ more globally is perhaps the difference.

Are you urban or rural Bumble?

I had to minimise my career success and felt quite worried about telling him about bonuses etc.
In the end we split up. For other reasons but that's another story. But I see now that I couldn't be my full self with him.

This point sounds important to me - being able to be your full self and not hide things is very liberating. I feel like I have almost always had to hide things to be more relatable and I'm tired of it and done with it.

In terms of being your real self with your new partner, did you feel at ease right away or peel the layers away gradually? And were you nervous about anything?

One of the things that I'm nervous about is that as I work with some semi-household names/ might have social drinks with them (I care zero who people are/ don't see them as different). However I pretty much hide that part of myself from everyone, as in the past I have gotten some very odd reactions, and I'd love it if I didn't have to with a partner.

That's something I struggle to relate to. Both at school and university I was always top 3 if not first. At work I'd be very disappointed if I wouldn't be in the top tier of performers at my level. I'm highly competitive and don't see the point in doing something without striving to be the best.

I wouldn't say it's downright not socially acceptable in the UK, but openly trying the hardest and wanting to be the best (not at the expense of others) or uber prepared seems to not be considered a positive trait?

For example, if I was speaking publicly, I would never say something like 'I can't do math to save my life'. Long story (in the context of a recent event I attended) but that kind of discourse seems to be a common technique to endear oneself to people. I've only recently realised that trying to be good at everything may make people like me less, not more. It was actually the opening chapter of "Yellowface" that made me think about it more deeply.

Wow, top 1%? Congratulations, you have clearly worked hard, I am definitely nowhere near that benchmark 😊

Through internet dating I've been on lots of first dates where men have been shocked that I own my own home, I own a decent car outright and I have a Nanny for my children. These topics all come up in normal conversation. These days I tend to say I "work in finance" to Ken I meet, rather than mentioning I'm a Director, which can feel a bit like I'm hiding myself away.

Out of interest, what kind of guys have these been? And are you urban or rural, normal or more upmarket area? Are you perhaps quite young to have that level of achievement? Are you looking for men similar to yourself or do you not really care?

I do hide myself away in a similar way as frankly I am afraid of a bit of judgement, and only with the man I most recently dated was I comfortable talking about these things little by little, as he was similar. I mostly try to stay away from these topics or can be a bit evasive, which I know is not ideal.

I've got to a point now though where I've decided I can only really be my true self. So for example when someone asks how my home is tidy and well decorated, I do admit that someone else does this, even if I know that can result in judgement.

Honest question, how do you know if these men are single, in a relationship or married? As this never seems to come up in the conversations I have with them!! We tend to discuss the subject matter and then swap contact details for a follow-up meet - which I treat as purely a business meeting.

Good for you, but people in general are excellent at magic it very clear when they hold you in contempt.

Unfortunately being an independent intelligent woman attracts a fair amount of contempt. You've also rather proved my point by dismissing me and pretending that I'm mistake when I recognise when others hold me in contempt.

I actually have a lovely high achieving husband who was prepared to put his career on hold and follow me round the world. He was a friend of a friend at university, but very introverted so didn't get snapped up.

Other than wearing a ring, the men I meet professionally always seem to mention wife/kids/partner where it is a professional meeting but even more so at networking events. I always find myself chatting to people about holidays and the topic of where/what time of year/family vs singles holidays always comes up so it is very easy to figure it out. In my field people don’t want to just talk about work so personal topics seem to come up more easily.

At work, this is quite easy, as the majority of married men/those in relationships (and women) only appear at social events once in a blue moon and are always the first ones to leave for home so quite easy to spot those that are single. They also tend to spend Fridays in the office (when everyone else is back with family/partner at home).

Urban Bumble ...

To be totally frank you can't be your true self in those first few dates. I learnt that the hard way on the apps ... you give too much and then they ghost etc. So you give enough to be genuine but it's just testing the waters so not everything.

But relatively quickly on I was able to identify men with whom I could be myself. I had 2 decent relationships through Bumble, and this second one is still ongoing. With him, I felt quite quickly that he didn't judge but just accepted me for who I was. With all the imperfections (and there's a few!). Interestingly it helped in the bedroom too ... I was much more free to express my desires without worrying what he thought. I never felt nervous with him but it was a more gradual layer thing so perhaps that stopped me being nervous.

I hear you on the hiding parts of yourself and I put a protective barrier around me for so long ... I didn't let anyone in because I was scared. And it took a while to drop those barriers

I'm starting to think I'm just really boring! Haha. I don't tend to have these types of conversations with men unless I know someone quite well. Obviously you have a few men that always bring this kind of stuff up, but I find that most do not mention if they have a wife/ girlfriend/ family.

Similar at my normal workplace, partners/ family don't come up unless specifically discussed/ only certain people regularly bring up their partner/ kids. Within my own team yes as we are close, but not so much outside of it.

E.g. I am a little bit interested in a man at work and I have no idea how to find out whether he's single or not!

London urban or other urban? Sorry to pry, you don't have to say of course! I'm not far at all from 2 top 10 cities (think Manchester + Liverpool) so when I have switched the app on when I am there and gotten a lot of 'likes' as I think all women do, but I haven't found the population so different.

I don't necessarily advertise my job etc on apps though, as I don't think that matters like I said in the OP. I just put my interests on there and only 'like' a small number of men whose profile genuinely interests me.

I try to be myself as much as I can but focus more on interests, fun parts of my personality, general 'banter' etc. When I did OLD I texted a lot with people and trying to see if there was enough common ground before meeting up. So I've not had any 'bad' dates with nothing to talk about. However, with the man that I dated for a while and really liked, we talked about abstract things, joked around, discussed politics and public life, and I don't think basic biographical facts were even topics of conversation. It was a very different 'script'.

Oh I definitely agree being able to be yourself helps in the bedroom too. Huge difference. Being yourself generally in relationships hugely helps.

So is the conclusion that people who 'have done well for themselves' might actually be quite guarded and shy about it?

@ElleintheWoods Are you available for dating? 😂

Sadly I likely live far away from you and I am not very sociable. There are plenty of other men though who do not care about women earning lots of money though.

@StamppotAndGravy Unfortunately being an independent intelligent woman attracts a fair amount of contempt. You've also rather proved my point by dismissing me and pretending that I'm mistake when I recognise when others hold me in contempt.

I didn't dismiss your comment because you are an "independent intelligent woman" (I don't know you, so I wouldn't know that). I dismissed your claim because it's baseless.

I actually have a lovely high achieving husband who was prepared to put his career on hold and follow me round the world. He was a friend of a friend at university, but very introverted so didn't get snapped up.

Do you not see how this proves the point I am trying to make?

@ElleintheWoods

£200k gets you into the top 1% of PAYE workers, I had thought it would be somewhere between £500k and £1m; just shows who is paying all the tax in this country (but I digress!).

Of the peers I trained with, I’m middle of the pack, there are a few firm partners, a few Directors and a couple of women who’ve taken a step back to fit with childcare and their DH’s. Where I differ most is that I’m a single parent, and have a DC with SEN, but I pay an army to help run our lives, and that’s not cheap.

I live in greater London, and as with everywhere in London there’s good and bad bits cheek by jowl. I work in central London which is handy for attending events and in theory coming across lots of potentials.

I’ve been open to the kind of man I’d like to partner with, as I’d severely limit my options otherwise. Aside from having decent values and morals and being kind (this is important to me as my EX was very cruel), I’m not fussed about what they do. I'm also keen on meeting a single Dad who is hands on, so he appreciates the commitment of having DC.

I’ve met men who are tradesmen, security guards, HGV drivers, chefs etc. Through the dating I’ve realised someone with a shift pattern doesn’t work for me, and I need someone living within an hour’s travel. I’ve now ruled out some of the above as otherwise their working life doesn’t suit, and the income disparity is just too high.

Other than my contemporaries, people I meet (men and women) are surprised that I have a Nanny for my DC, but without her I couldn’t work. One friend asked once how much it costs, as I was stupidly complaining it was so expensive, and her eyes nearly fell out of her head when I said £4k per month. I’m sure she looks at me differently now, and it’s not something I would mention to anyone again, so I understand your comment about becoming more guarded.

@ElleintheWoods it's really easy to find out if someone is married or partnered up through conversation, even in a professional setting.

If you talk to someone for at least 5 minutes, most people will mention something personal (unless actively avoiding doing so) so you can hook onto that, and expand the conversation.

Talking about the sports they play; a lot of men get into football or rugby coaching because their sons do so when young; so it's easy to drop a casual "I bet your wife must love it when you all disappear on a Sunday morning" into the conversation, as it will get a response that tells you either he has one (he ALWAYS does!) or not.

I again keep myself guarded here, and never mention my DC at networking events because I don't want to open up a conversation about my non-existent DH, or being a single mum. Of course if I met someone single I'd make it clear to him that I have DC, but not until then.

@ElleintheWoods have a conversation with your interest at work around what he did at the weekend on Monday.

Expand the conversation to cover general interests, and what he does in his free time, any hobbies etc.

I always make the assumption that someone has a DW or GF unless they tell me otherwise, so when they talk about x event I may say something like "were you there in a group or was it just you and your partner?"

You might need to do a bit more probing in a casual way, but you can ALWAYS find out marital status in these sorts of water cooler conversations.

Well absolutely, but IME you are in a very small percentage of women who can vouch for their ex. Yes, the older generation stayed together even though the relationships were toxic - but women have woken up to the fact they don’t have to live like that (and thanks to being more independent). I’m mid 40s - two of my exes are good guys, but the last two are dangerous misogynists in disguise. The men I’ve met who are in the dating pool seem to be in their late 30s/early 40s who have never been in a LTR (like you say, and yes, a very good reason usually emerges!) or divorced dads who became a liability in some way after having children (abusive - reading between the lines, crap at doing their share, had an affair, etc etc). So it’s slim pickings even without taking into account “success”

I think that is the main thing; he is 100% happy with himself...he has his DC 50/50 so understands my priorities and lack of time (I have mine 100%).
He has also experienced 'gold--digger' mentality in the past so actually appreciates our equal footing rather than putting up with it.