Confused- sex when one person doesn’t want to

[noitsachicken]

I’m married with children. Things haven't been great, DH can be up and down with his moods and easily become cross at times. But most of the time things are ok, he does he fair share around the house and lots with the children.
Recently I haven’t always been in the mood for sex, I am perimenopausal and when he has been cross with me or the kids I just don’t want to.
I tend to avoid it by going to bed early, but sometimes I can’t and just say no, but this often leads to sulking, and can affect his mood.
A few times recently he has tried to start something, I’ve sometimes been asleep, sometimes I’ve said no, and not reciprocated but he has carried on. I just kind of froze and let it happen.
I’m not sure if I’ve not been clear enough, I feel like my body language is clear, one time my legs were crossed and he pushed them apart.
But maybe I need to just say No and deal with the moodiness.

The most recent time I was led there and he was touching me, I hadn’t said anything and he was carrying on. He was being a little more rough than usual, eventually I said ‘you’re hurting me’ he stopped and apologised.

I don’t feel like he has forced me into sex, but feel like it’s clear I don’t want to but he has carried on.

I’ve lost sight of what is ok.

Maybe I just need to be clearer and say no. But sometimes it’s easier just to do it.

This is so very sad and a complete travesty of what marriage should be about. Don't just give in - say a clear no.
You never ever have to have sex you are not enthusiastic about.

But more than that have a detailed conversation with him if you really do plan to stay. He needs to know that you are not his sexual property.

Thankyou for all the messages.
I am taking it all in. It’s just a lot

Maybe I just need to be clearer and say no. But sometimes it’s easier just to do it

This is coerced consent and is still rape. I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

I'm a PP who has stated this is clearly rape - as I see a row has broken out about whether posters are being sufficiently emphatic about this.

Why is it so inevitable that once a MN thread has accumulated a few dozen replies, there will be an outbreak of not just disagreement (which is understandable) but vitriolic personal attacks?

I point this out because it's relevant- humans are complicated, communicating is complicated and relationships are complicated.

Many of us do things within relationships which are not ideal. We put up with behaviour which is unacceptable, sometimes because we've lost sight of what is normal as abusive behaviour ramps up over time, and - shock horror - sometimes when we know full well it's not ok, but the alternative is even worse.

Do women really have the option to leave that so many MNers assume- LTB is easier to say than to do.

Women with children who are married to higher earners face the prospect of becoming practically full time single parents (with the odd weekend off if the ex takes an interest- but it will often be when it suits him rather than her). Having to fight tooth and nail to get the child maintenance they deserve.
Having to battle through toxic divorces which take a heavy financial and emotional toll on all involved.
Wreaking havoc on children's routines, stability and future prospects/ happiness.
And much more.

Frankly I can easily see why many women put up with quiet rape, low level coercive control, occasional shouting and name calling. Even affairs and being with someone who shows no love or affection. I was in a relationship just like that and it took me years to leave.

All relationships are transactional to some extent. I wish it was as easy as 'he is a rapist, leave now'. But it just isn't that easy.

Thankyou all.
I just don’t know how much I am overthinking or imagining things.
Mostly things are ok, he works hard, does plenty at home, does lots with the children.
He has always had a short temper, sometimes things are ok, but sometimes he gets angry. Never physical, but can be cruel. I often have to remind him that he is the adult, and facilitate apologies. Things improve for a while then go back.
Sometimes I am walking on eggshells and have changed how I behave sometimes, and have had to ask the children to do the same.
I work term time/school hours so I am home for the children and I did not work for around 8/9 years when they were young. He’s never really supported me working, and I do extra volunteering sometimes which occasionally impacts him, and he doesn’t really like this. But he doesn’t stop me. I still see friends and go out, I don’t feel like he’s controlling. Although often talks about ‘his house’ and although I have my own bank account and access to joint accounts it’s very much ‘his money’ because he is the high earner.

I don’t know, generally we are a normal family doing normal things, we have a nice house and comfortable life.
Sometimes I feel like this is just a mid-life crisis and that’s why I feel this way.

Marriages are indeed transactional to some degree .... but forced sex is a transaction too far.
The only answer is communication. But that is hard to achieve when married to someone who actually believes that its OK to have sex with someone who he knows does not wish to. How do you communicate yourself out of that one?
We are back to the old sexual incompatibility dilemma. Difficult to solve when one participant does not understand the basic principle of consent.
His temper sounds problematical too ... especially when it impacts his treatment of the children.
You do have a right to some happiness.

OP, you already have told him No. He must respect you. Other that that is marital abuse/rape.

OP, don’t second guess yourself, or accuse yourself of overthinking or imagining things. If you feel something is wrong, or feel pressured or uncomfortable, that’s not right. How you feel is valid.

I appreciate it can be easier to talk yourself out of problems than face them - especially when things seem generally OK. But how you’re feeling sounds awful - consciously trying to avoid him/bedtime sounds like a horrible way to live.

You’re entitled to have standards about what’s acceptable behaviour: I’m sure you’d never pressure or force anyone into sex, so it’s not unreasonable to expect the same in return. I know that sounds glaringly obvious and didn’t address how serious the problem could be, but sometimes when acknowledging an issue it helps to start small. E.g. Would I do that? If the answer is no, there’s no need to accept it from someone else.

From what you’ve written, it does sound like you have quite a traditional set up in which he sees himself as the one with the authority. He doesn’t sound so controlling you could easily call it abuse or coercive control (apart from the forced sex), but the fact that you’ve told the kids to adapt behaviour around him and you walk on eggshells makes him sound pretty unpleasant, Victorian and domineering. It seems the entitlement in his day to day behaviour is now spilling over into the bedroom.

It’s worrying that he says things like “his house”. By reducing your working hours and doing the childcare, you’ve facilitated him working to pay for things. So it’s just a much your as his. It sounds like he doesn’t see things that way, and feels like he has ownership not only of the house but of your body too. It sounds like your wishes are a bit of an inconvenience to him - whether in the bedroom or with your volunteering.

I don’t know how you’d change such a long-standing dynamic in which he sees you as a useful appliance who’s reliant on his support. But a big change in his perspective is what would be required for him to treat you with the respect you deserve.

I wonder what you wanted from this thread? Did you want reassurance that everyone puts up with unwanted sex sometimes so you could carry on and put it behind you? (I think the consensus here is that you shouldn’t have to do that.) Or is this the start of acknowledging bigger doubts?

Good posts there from @Mischance and @EveningSpread, who have broken away from the reductionist ‘it’s rape, leave’ and the infighting thank God!

OP, your last post practically describes my last relationship so closely that I could almost believe you were with my ex if it wasn’t for the fact that you’ve been with your partner long term!!

“I just don’t know how much I am overthinking or imagining things. Mostly things are ok.”

I felt this all the time. Leading to more overthinking! “Am I overdramatising things? He’s ok most of the time. Everyone really likes him. I’m not easy myself. Men need sex. I’m the lazy one.” Etcetera etfuckingcetera.

The fact is that women will work all the harder at relationships as men lose interest. We’re natural people pleasers, compromisers and self reflectors. We’ll generally find ourselves wanting long before we blame our partner.

Overthinking is a symptom of being in a bad relationship. Look on it as a big warning sign.

Now I’m free of my ex I very rarely overthink anything in my life. Because I’m happy and confident now.

“He has always had a short temper…can be cruel…. I have to facilitate apologies. Things improve then go back… eggshells… “

I had to change my behaviour sometimes to accommodate my ex too. Sometimes it worked and it felt good at the time - “look at me making the effort and being a great partner!” Now I’m free I realise it wasn’t a good thing. I put up with too much for far too long.

“He’s never really supported me working... I do extra volunteering”

My ex HATED me volunteering. He saw it as an affront to him - why would I spend my free time doing anything other than making him happy?! But he was evolved and socialised enough not to say that out loud. He just huffed about it and questioned it a lot.

Misogynistic men usually come from traditional homes with overtly or covertly sexist fathers and hard working, but subservient mothers. Men like this believe they have ‘earned’ their partner. High earnings are also often an indicator of this. These men see life as a series of opportunities to get what they want and they will work hard and conform to whatever societal norms are expected to get there. But once something is ‘earned’, it/ she is his, he now expects it/ her to deliver the expected return while he focuses on the next acquisition.

“I don’t feel like he’s controlling.”

Sorry to be blunt, but he is. He is raping you. That's the pinnacle of controlling. You've described lots of other controlling behaviour which is lower level too, but still controlling nonetheless.

I didn’t feel controlled by my ex either. Until we broke up. Now I see it clear as day and it’s why I’m fascinated by the fact there are so many others trapped in the same situation, unable to see the obvious. Also why I spend so much time writing long replies in the hope of helping other women see the reality of their situation. We put up with too much for too long and tell ourselves it's our fault - we must do whatever possible to keep the peace and avoid him going into a huff because we might make him unhappy and force him to leave. All the while absorbing more and more pain and unhappiness into ourselves.

“Sometimes I feel like this is just a mid-life crisis and that’s why I feel this way.”

A mid life crisis isn’t just a random blip which happens for no reason. It’s a realisation that you might want something more or different from life before it’s too late. Think carefully and put an exit strategy in place. You should be there because you WANT to be there, not because you NEED to be there. If you have a completely viable alternative to staying with this man, and you still decide to stay, that’s free will. At the moment you are trapped in something which falls very far below what you should have to tolerate. Life can be soooo much better than this.

I wish you a better future OP. Good luck. x

Sometimes I am walking on eggshells and have changed how I behave sometimes, and have had to ask the children to do the same

Read this again OP. Imagine you were reading someone else saying this. You're having to ask your children to behave differently because of him.

@ClemFandangooo I'm not saying she shouldn't leave him but...
If he is a true narcissistic, a true controller, she also stands to lose her children either 50/50 or the majority too if she does.
It's rare (even coercively controlling ex's aren't usually that cruel) but unfortunately it happens.
I wish somebody would have warned me about this possibility.

He is not outright controlling but his behaviour and reactions means that you change things that you do. That’s coercive control again. Harder to pinpoint and prove but still as unpleasant as outright controlling behaviour.

This must be a really hard situation for you and I can understand how leaving feels impossible. Hopefully, you’re able to access outside support for this.

@Hellodarknessmyfriend yes me too. Sorry to hear you are yet another survivor of men like this.

@BeingATwatItsABingThing yes I agree outside help is vital now the genie is out of the box. If not, I can pretty much guarantee that the next big row is going to end with the OP shouting at him "EVERYONE ON MN SAYS YOU ARE RAPING ME". And that's not going to end well for anyone.

Sweetie, he has raped you and he'll keep doing it. Forcing your legs apart is unequivocally forcible rape. He's a sick evil bastard. Run!

I'm confused. Your post is contradictory. First you say it's "reductionist" to say he raped her, then you admit that did, in fact, rape her. What is up with this?

Talking to your GP would be helpful.
Creating a paper trail of the abuse is so wise.
You never know when you might be so glad of it.

@XChrome
"I'm confused. Your post is contradictory. First you say it's "reductionist" to say he raped her, then you admit that did, in fact, rape her. What is up with this?"

You need to reread my post. I didn't say it's reductionist to say he raped her.

It's reductionist of PPs to say little more than 'he's raping you, leave him'.

It's not easy or straightforward for the OP to immediately accept this is rape and that his other behaviour is controlling. Nor is it easy to up and leave a long term relationship with someone who is the father of your children.

You are living with a rapist.

Sometimes the bare facts are the only thing there is to say. It's up to the OP whether or not she accepts it. We won't convince her by adding a lot of word salad to go with that advice. Yes, it's hard. Everybody knows that. It doesn't change what the advice should be.

Sending you hugs. Experienced this with an ex; he turned out also to be a vengeful shit in other ways, so do make sure you have talked your options through with a women’s aid group or whoever you feel comfortable talking to and got all the support you need. It is a lot to take in.

People don't live in a world of bare facts. Daily life is often a site of baffling complexity. What might look easy or clear to one person seems muddy and complex to another, depending on where they're standing.

How can someone who claims to love you, to have built a life around you, also treat you in the most despicable way - even for 10 or 20 minutes at a time? That takes a lot of working through. You do what the OP does - you justify it, make allowances, blame yourself. Anything to protect yourself from the horrible reality, which means your whole world is not what it seems.

So it's good that some people are taking a 'bare facts' approach, while others are able to empathise with how confusing and contradictory the OP is finding their situation. Empathy and understanding will only help the OP out of the fog. Bald statements like 'your husband is a rapist' will be difficult for the OP to relate to, because she is living the day to day, in the standard family life, where it's not bad all the time. And even rapes can be different in their context, their level of violence, and so on. Some are clear cut cases of violence, while other instances leave people feeling confused and doubtful.

The thing is OP, even if you just sort of freeze and put up with it (so it's not violent and there's no overpowering or suchlike) it's still absolutely horrific: an act that should be close, intimate, loving and just as much about your pleasure as his shouldn't just be 'tolerated', certainly not dreaded!

And the worst thing is he knows you're not into it. Anyone who has ever experienced real, consensual intimacy knows the difference between someone being into it and someone who is not. It's clear as day. So he knows he's doing wrong.

It does sound as if you are normalising his behaviour. You have a nice life, but you are paying a high price. Only you can decide if it's worth it.

But this 'advice' doesn't take account of the fact that recognising oneself as the victim of abuse and being in a place to act on that knowledge simply doesn't happen overnight.

It's a lot to take in. After that, there's a significant amount of baggage to process. OP is only just arriving at that 'scales falling from the eyes' moment which, as I know from personal experience, is one of the most painful realizations there is. No one likes to look at their life and recognise themselves as a victim of long-term abuse (in my case, long-term child abuse).

Subsequent to this, there are recognition, denial and bargaining phases to be got through; just as there are with the grieving process. And this will be a grieving process for the marriage and the man OP once believed - and to an extent still does believe - she had.

They don't call this 'boiling frog syndrome' for nothing.

Which is why everlasting cries of 'LTB' are likely to be ineffective. OP is just beginning to recognise herself as the victim of repeated rape. What she needs right now is unequivocal support. You have mine, OP, as you begin to navigate this very painful situation.

@EveningSpread and @SerafinasGoose yes, what you both said very eloquently.

I'm slightly worried that the OP has disappeared. Hopefully it's just the need to get on with the day to day, rather than a move into denial or dismissal of the many valuable contributions on this thread.

As a woman over 40, most of my sex life predates #metoo and the modern focus on consent. So while I don't feel I have been raped (stranger in park style/ violent/ clear freezing or saying no), I have probably been raped many times...

by men who talked me into sleeping with them when I wasn't all that fussed,
by men who continued when the sex was bad,
by ex's who huffed if they didn't get regular sex,
by ex's who said 'you'll feel like it when we get going'
and many other situations where I would have said no if no had been socially acceptable, had zero consequences and I had fully understood my own agency and had more confidence earlier in my life.

But we do many things in life which we don't want to do. We balance some hardships with trade offs and lessor evils.

I wonder how many women are being quietly raped in relationships by partners who either don't realise what they're doing or simply don't care.

I’m still here.
I just don’t have any answers.

I’m quietly thinking. I have a good friend who knows a lot about what’s been happening, but not this. I’m not sure it’s fair to put this on a friend.