Confused- sex when one person doesn’t want to

[noitsachicken]

I’m married with children. Things haven't been great, DH can be up and down with his moods and easily become cross at times. But most of the time things are ok, he does he fair share around the house and lots with the children.
Recently I haven’t always been in the mood for sex, I am perimenopausal and when he has been cross with me or the kids I just don’t want to.
I tend to avoid it by going to bed early, but sometimes I can’t and just say no, but this often leads to sulking, and can affect his mood.
A few times recently he has tried to start something, I’ve sometimes been asleep, sometimes I’ve said no, and not reciprocated but he has carried on. I just kind of froze and let it happen.
I’m not sure if I’ve not been clear enough, I feel like my body language is clear, one time my legs were crossed and he pushed them apart.
But maybe I need to just say No and deal with the moodiness.

The most recent time I was led there and he was touching me, I hadn’t said anything and he was carrying on. He was being a little more rough than usual, eventually I said ‘you’re hurting me’ he stopped and apologised.

I don’t feel like he has forced me into sex, but feel like it’s clear I don’t want to but he has carried on.

I’ve lost sight of what is ok.

That has happened to me too . He did that few times and whenever I said no I was asked if I was sleeping with someone else. The last time it happened I went into a deep depression kept having panic attacks . I told certain people in my family however because I come from an African background no one actually acknowledged the way his act actually made me feel. I was told I was being selfish if I wanted to leave him and I should think about my kids. I felt violated, I felt like my life didn’t belong to me anymore(still feel like that), I was made to feel it’s what couples go through and I needed to forgive and move on. Currently we are still together but I resent him, I resent him even more because he knew I was sexually abused when I was a child by my uncle and he used that to make me feel worse. If you can please leave! That’s not normal behaviour.

This happened to me for years. I totally minimised it. It was MN that helped me see the light. I’m divorced from him now and much happier.

You have to think, what sort of person is he if he’s happy to have sex with an unwilling partner? What is he thinking when you’re lying there frozen and obviously non consensual. How does his mind work if he still gets pleasure out of it ? ?
It’s all about control. He knows what he’s doing.

Wallking on eggshells is a huge red flag too and your children are being affected. They shouldn’t have to tiptoe around someone in case he loses his temper. This environment will become their “normal”
It’s very damaging for children to grow up like this. Speak to Women’s Aid.

You're not saying “no” to him for fear of upsetting him.Yet he is clearly upsetting you, and doesn’t care.
You’re giving more importance to his feelings than your own.because he has eroded your self esteem and sense of self .

My only advice is to get away from him. As MNetters would say: get your ducks in a row !

You may earn less but half the marital assets are yours… the house, his pension and “his” money !
He only got to be a high earner because you sacrificed your earning potential , looking after his kids.

And just to add, as pp have said you don’t go to counselling with an abuser. They just try to manipulate the counsellor and you’ll end up feeling more confused. Agree, get counselling for you.
You may find Rights of Women useful for support. They offer free legal advice too.
www.google.com/search?q=rights+of+women&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

OP, can you address his anger issues? Maybe in counselling? I'm not surprised you don't want to have sex with a man who has spoken angrily to you and/or your children. That would be a complete turn-off for me.

I don't think you should accept the status quo. You sound depressed. I think you should sit him down and tell him that the marriage isn't right, you don't feel close, you don't like his moods, and that sex is off the table until the marriage improves.

And then attempt to make that improvement through counselling. I really think it would be helpful, and I think you should insist that he goes, if he's reluctant.

Maybe moving into a spare room, if you have one, would send the message that you're not going to have sex under these circumstances anymore.

You don't have to live with this kind of half-life. You can change your life, whether that comes from improving the marriage, if he's open to that, or divorcing. He might surprise you. He might be horrified to learn how his advances make you feel, and he might not realise how upsetting his anger is and that it's linked to turning you off. Or he might indeed turn out to be an arse. Counselling will really help you clarify which man he is.

Sending you a huge hug xxx Your life can better than this - but you have to insist on change. 💝

Trouble is, he’s raping OP on a regular basis and knows it ( no consent but carries on).

It’s not just “advances”.

I don't think that OP's husband has raped her. She's said he doesn't push it and she's in no fear of him. Rape is a very serious accusation. Without OP vocalising what she does and doesn't want, he might just think she's enjoying the sex in silence, and/or be completely clueless about reading signals. On the current "Funniest ick" thread, some people have talked about how they've had partners who have enjoyed sex in complete silence, including when they orgasm.

OP won't really know what he's about until she discusses these issues with him.

On closer reading, the OP's posts are a little unclear. In one, she does say that she says no and he carries on. That is definitely rape! But in another, she says that she feels in no danger and believes that he would stop if she asked him to. It's a bit confusing.

@noitsachickenif you feel you can talk to someone about this

@ThisFluentBiscuit your comments are outrageous. Stop being a rape apologist. It’s not the op’s job to “fix” her husband. Even by your comprehension, her H has raped her in occassion! Being raped once is enough ffs and I believe it’s every time btw.

@thisfluentbiscuit Since OP has spoken to Rape Crisis and they've supported her and confirmed it's rape, it'd be nice if you could stop minimising and throwing shade. Where there's no consent, it's rape. Even by your own posts, you've acknowledged a rape. So stop treating it like a matter of debate, it's someone's life.

It's just that the OP's messages were a little contradictory. OK, he rapes her regularly - in that case, I hope his ass gets thrown in jail for a very long time. 🤬

There is nothing confusing about the OP's posts for readers who understand the concept of consent.
You clearly are confused.
Perhaps educate yourself.

This is why I am confused.

I didn’t say yes, but I didn’t say no.

I didn’t give consent, but I didn’t try to stop him, and maybe I should have tried to stop him.

@noitsachicken it’s not your fault, not giving consent means you are saying no.

it shouldn’t be confusing, OP. You just said it yourself. You didn’t give consent. He would have known you were unwilling from your body language.Communication is both verbal and non verbal.You don’t actively have to say the word “no”. Equally, you could be pressured and coerced into saying yes when you actually mean no.
If he wants sex and you say “ I’m tired “ ( or any other response that shows lack of enthusiasm) he should know that you are not consenting.

Sex should be pleasurable for both parties and if one of you is coming across as less than enthusiastic, it should be interpreted as non consensual.

He would have well known OP, no doubt about it.

OP, I really think you should talk to him. You're very clearly unhappy. I'm a little confused because in one of your posts you say that you said no and he carried on, but you're also saying that you didn't say no. Anyway, just talk to him. He must, at minimum, have noticed that you're not exactly fired up with enthusiasm for sex with him. And who would be, with a man who can't control his temper?

Only you know what's happened in your bedroom and if you think it's rape or not. If so, he's toxic and you should split up. If he's just clueless and thinks you enjoy it unless you stop him and/or say otherwise, then there's hope that your marriage and by extension your sex life can improve. Either way, you don't have to live like this - you CAN change and improve your life, whether that's with him or without.

Sending big hugs xxx

We don't know that until she talks to him and sees how he reacts.

One time I said no, pushed his hand away.
Other times I didn’t explicitly say no

Why are you carrying on like this again ?

Erm, in response to OP's new post at 17.36 saying that she didn't say no or try to stop him?

OP, the time you said no, is that the time he carried on? If so, that's clearly rape.

@ThisFluentBiscuit I feel like crying in frustration at your comments. OP started this thread 9 months ago and through considered and ongoing conversations on this thread has come to accept that her husband has raped her. She had come back to update on her progress (which is huge from where she was at the start) so you coming on and offering advice that is not only counter productive but entirely offensive has me shaking in anger. None of us know the OP irl but her post has touched many of us deeply and we are very concerned for her. You suggesting that she talk to, go to counselling with this abusive man or is even considering that she wants her sex life to improve is just so far from the mark. Please stop. OP has taken a long time to get this far and has been concerned about whether this is in some way her fault (which it most certainly isn’t) or that people won’t believe/dismiss her so for you to misread the situation so badly and give such ill informed advice is cruel.

No doubt you had good intent and meant well but you are not helping. Please just stop. Please.

Hi @ThisFluentBiscuit I won’t criticise what you said because we are all entitled to our own opinion . To be fair you have been unbiased in your advice but still when you haven’t been in a situation like that you won’t understand. I understand @noitsachicken because I have been in the same situation where I have been made to have sex without saying no or yes and trust me you don’t enjoy or get pleasure out of it because you’re completely numb inside. This type of man can’t be spoken to because all they do is dismiss your feelings and make you feel you’re the problem. I really hope OP was able to get the help she needs and is definitely not by therapy with him or staying to save her marriage.

OP, I had an ex boyfriend who did exactly as you described and I responded in exactly the same way.
I dreaded bedtime whilst he thoroughly relished the thought of going up to bed. I also froze and there were times when I cried, yet he appeared not to notice.
I told myself I should just bloody say no! I pulled the covers up over myself to conceal my breasts, but he tugged and tugged at the covers, claiming he only wanted to see. He badgered me for sex a lot.
He pulled my legs apart, and would perform foreplay on me whilst I lay there cringing and frozen.
Every time he would ask me if I was OK, I would say I was fine, despite my body telling a different story.
I dodged him when he tried to kiss me, I rolled away from him (he would pull me back), I wanted it over with as quickly as possible yet he wanted it to last as long as possible.
I was never scared of him physically, but I just got sick of the pressure and the constant dread of him making his desires known.
In the end, I dreaded being alone with him because he would tell me how much he was looking forward to 'worshipping' me. Yes, that's how he saw it.
When he was at work, I felt clear headed, and told myself I only had to say no, but when the time came, that felt so difficult.
He would accuse me of not fancying him anymore and remind me that I used to fancy him so much. I would reassure him at these times that it wasn't that I didn't fancy him, I just didn't feel like it.
He made me feel like I was the one with the problem, that he hadn't changed, he still wanted sex as much as ever.
In the end, I felt irritated by his sex drive. He seemed to me to be obsessed with sex, watched porn regularly and I fell completely out of love with him.
One day, we had an argument because I felt disrespected about something completely separate to anything sexual, and I kicked him out.
I looked forward to going to bed that night and knew then that I could never go back to him.
From that day onwards, I realised he disrespected me in many ways, I devoted myself to accommodating him and his needs, tried so hard to make him happy but he was only ever there for me when it was convenient for him.
I realised he was a miserable negative person and I had prioritised him enormously over myself. I had put him first in so many ways, and he hadn't even noticed!
His attitude was I should just say so. I should just do the things I wanted to do. Yet when I tried, he was always so pissed off about it, so I modified my behaviour to appease him. Surprisingly, he would tell me that all he wanted was for me to be happy. I found myself getting short tempered when he was due home.
He was also very conflict avoidant. If I tried to discuss something he was doing that made me unhappy, he would defend himself, never took accountability, and sometimes just walked out so he didn't have to listen to me when I was angry with his disrespect of me.

The feeling of freedom once he was gone is impossible to put into words. You can be free too.