What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

So what you have said, is what happened to me only in reverse, ex was cheating with various people for years until I found out about it and dumped him. He ended up with 50% of all the assets (the majority I had brought to the relationship). I have the DC most of the time and work, meanwhile, he has gone and got himself a better job (although while more senior in name, not in pay apparently, according to CMS payments) and found another person to fill the 'beck and call' role. I, meanwhile am not looking for a relationship of any kind because I feel the value I would get from it are not worth what I would have to put into it or the stability that my DC have at my home.

Same here @FlippyFloppyShoe - I've no desire to let a man get his hands on my assets or my teen dd. Far safer to watch them blow up the planet at a distance and live a relaxed meaningful life!
Every act of aggression from them reinforces my decision too.

I do have hope for the younger generation though. Most 20/30yr old's I meet seem to have manners and a sense of humour. It's the 40yr old's and older who have anger and relational issues.

I think it's more society than men per se. People used to accept eachother with their flaws and faults and we're not so quick to judge. Vows were taken deadly serious no matter what. Now people tend to have unrealistic expectations of absolute perfection in a partner both physically and in character and walk away from marriages and relationships at the drop of a hat. Oh, and people used to actually spend time getting to know eachother before jumping in the sack.

A Male only needs a short interaction with a female to pass on his genes.

For a female to pass on her genes successfully much more time and energy are needed. There is also a higher risk to her own life.

Given that males have a low investment in each copulation and near zero risk to their lives there is a lower likelihood they are interested in a "loving relationship".

Conversely, the "loving relationship" is preferable if the energy and risk to reproduction are high.

Dating apps imo are giving men the upper hand. They can try their luck with an unprecedented number of women. They don't even need to go to a pub and at least feign interest.

Yes and that's the conundrum right. I'm six years separated and have dated etc but not introduced anyone to the kids or done anything that has involved too much commitment.

I do also wonder if it wasn't for online dating where a lot of people in their late 30s / 40s etc would.be.

I've found dating posdible with the apps but would probably have been single a fair few years without them.

The first paragraph makes sense. I wouldn't necessarily agree but it does make sense.

The second paragraph seems a bit snidey.

Dating apps imo are giving men the upper hand. They can try their luck with an unprecedented number of women. They don't even need to go to a pub and at least feign interest.

completely agree* *

don't get to know each other properly and move in with each other too quick .

Once read online a vulgar quote from a man on a Red pill website " If women didn't have holes we wouldn't talk to them"
Most men on the site agreed with him .

True, but it's not even about the assets. I don't want a relationship because I don't want the emotional/time investment that I would inevitably put in, only to find that I end up with someone who doesn't genuinely put that investment in the relationship themselves.

But I don't want to date. I have no interest in it. I have plenty of friends and a full life, house, car, income, books, holidays... I have no desire to be treated badly again by someone who doesn't know what they want. I don't want my DC to be put at risk by a man. I don't want to be put at risk by a man. We simply have no desire or need for one in our lives.

As for the "snidey" part; men surely have to take responsibility for themselves at some point when alone? Wives take over from mothers for the most part (feeding and clothing etc). When wives don't put up with what mothers have to the men have to do this for themselves. Which presumably is why so many are keen to hook another woman to take over the drudgery (you've said they have no desire for emotional relations or commitment). Many women see this coming a mile off.

Have you watched the Ashely Maddison show on Netflix? It is quite clear most "women" men talk to are AI. Because they invest so little time in getting to know real women, men simply cannot tell.

It's no big surprise men don't date women of similar stature and appearance if AI is pretending to them they can hook a 25yo who will do everything they ever imagined with no strings and they are stupid enough to believe it.

"Dating apps imo are giving men the upper hand. They can try their luck with an unprecedented number of women. They don't even need to go to a pub and at least feign interest."

What do you mean by upper hand? I thought women didn't see relationships as a competition?

I think the 'problem' with dating apps is the same problem with big cities.

Those men that don't want commitment can tap into a pool of no-strings sexual partners. That used to be achieved via pubs and nightclubs, with taller/fitter/successful men being more in demand. A female flatmate once commented that London was a hard city to live in for a single woman that wanted a relationship because men had so many no-strings options - e.g. tourists, meat markets, etc.

The online dating scene is like that but on steroids. Data has, apparently, shown that 80% of women are chasing the same 20% of men. That suggests the following:

20% of men are going to find what they want.
20% of women may end up happy if they end up getting a relationship with one of those men (but how many of the male 20% are going to want the 'good times' to end?)
60% of women are going to be disappointed because there aren't enough 'desirable' men to go around.
The remaining 20% of women should end up happy because they're choosing from the remaining 80% of men.
Of the remaining 80% of men, 60% are going to end up getting no-one, unless the 60% of disappointed women change their online dating behaviour.

When the 20% of 'desirable' men are chased by so many women, is it surprising that they don't engage with relationships?

I don't know what the solution to this problem is. If you don't get involved, then you've already 'lost'. If you do, the odds seem pretty clear that you're not going to end up happy.

I agree with some of the previous views an opinions. There are adult women, with a life, that after one or various failed relationship are happy to embraced singlehood because they now value themselves in a way that won't turn an eye blind in certain stuff.
Nobody is perfect, but maturity makes you value drama free days and not to put with silly stuff. I am one of them and if people ask why I'm single I just tell the truth that took me years to discover. I don't need one, I would like one, but not anyone. Maybe we should say that loud more often to the younger generations.
Being in good loving relationship can be seen as a plus, it shouldn't be seen as as a need.
The whole idea of princess and knights and romantic love, always overrated, is now completely out of date in this modern practical society.

Not sure where you are getting your figures from but women by and large don't use dating apps (or watch porn) as much as men do. Maybe the women on there do like casual sex, which suits the men. As was shown with the Ashley Maddison, most will be AI and purely there as a business plan to keep men using the app. Men like this because it boosts their ego and don't seem to notice they never get to actually meet these "hot babes". Maybe they don't care and get lost in the loop for the rest of their lives happy that the bots make them feel special.

Women outside of apps find men who haven't got into this circular world of bots and clicks and develop relationships with them. Also I have noticed a number of women becoming more fluid with who they date. I wouldn't be amazed if figures go up for single sex relationships as the topic becomes less taboo. It's higher already for the younger generation who have less hang-ups about it.

Soft feminine energy? Strong, providing man? U OK, hun?

Out of interest, who are men chasing? Because the way its framed here is that OLD is like catalogue for women to choose from, with insufficient supply of quality product to meet demand. Surely men are chasing and choosing also, as would be reflective of tradional dating behaviour. So what percentage of women are being chased by what percentage of men?

Men swipe far more liberally. I think something like 1 on 2 or 1 in 3. So women end up with a like more 'likes'

Well, we all know men aren't picky with women they just want to sleep with.

The problem men have got is women are much, much better at living alone and still having a good life. Men, not so much. Younger women tend to believe that men and women are equal, and that men in general value and respect them, but life and a prolonged study of human nature as it manifests in male form tends to knock that out of you. Women become far more cynical about men as they get older, and with financial independence they have the choice now to opt out of bad relationships. The happiest women I know are single.

If I'm honest I don't have much use for men who aren't well hung with a good physique, or rather when I was younger and had any use for men at all those were the only ones I was interested in 🤷🏼‍♀️

I wouldn't be picky about men if I weren't scared that they would harm me.
Surely the reason men aren't picky about women is that women aren't much of a threat to men?

Those men that don't want commitment can tap into a pool of no-strings sexual partners
@ThisOldThang they might be able to tap into a pool but they won't get lucky unless they are the minority of men who are good-looking and in good shape, the rest will only get to shag a hot woman if they pay for it

Yeah but that's equally true the other way round (the only difference is men are generally more interested in sex)

Unfortunately this is often the way on these threads.

A perfectly valid point is made, in this case research regarding online dating apps. The research by the way is consistent and regarded as accurate. Hence something tangible to measure dating by.

The response is then 'well women don't use dating apps'. Yes they do ! Especially as we get a bit older late 30s onwards.