What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

So what you're saying that there's no benefit to men for being a decent worthwhile person to women so why should they change?

Yes but I don't think they actually give a shit about what the stats say, they will just go and get another one (woman/family) but doesn't mean they have any motivation to try and maintain that relationship either, just rinse and repeat.

Says someone who clearly puts zero effort into "woman/family"
What a catch that guy will be - oh don't mind the 2 other families I left behind with nothing, no I don't put effort into relationships with those kids anymore...
Women will FLOCK!

Well sure, prince charming will obviously have a massive queue of women begging to be his doormat!

@chocolatecoveredpeanut what do you mean "says someone who clearly puts zero effort into women/family" ??

You've just used the words "rinse and repeat" about leaving "woman/family"

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it hardly sounds as though you're a thoughtful lover or partner.

A surprising number just aren't able to get another one, and then they end up alone in a bedsit.

That is how I feel men think because of the lack of motivation to stay with one woman/family they will just move on to another one until their partner becomes disillusioned with their behaviour, so they will just move on again.

But why?

@grinandslothit not my experience of life so far I'm afraid, I guess at some point as they age they might temper certain aspects that would cause their wives to be disillusioned eg cheating or not helping with children, because they are not his children or the children have left home etc

An astute observation there.

Yes to this.

I think many women experience the fallout of the highly dysfunctional families their male partners grew up in.

We also have a generation of young men growing up in families where the adult male is abusive/ an addict or alcoholic/ a completely selfish, entitled waste of space who takes out his frustrations on the woman.

I know you posted this quite a long time ago but I feel what you have posted has
been totally and utterly misplaced when men( boys) join up they are often placed into a new world . The idea comes to them that what other soldiers can and often do to other women and children is beyond their thinking that another soldier would use other woman and children as body shields .It's horrific , and have even used disabled children as a means to transport bombs .You wouldn't think anyone would do that .
Leave the victims of violence in their country to the dogs .
Men in our country aren't inhuman but they do need help to process all that they have seen and dealt with when abroad .
My husbands best moment abroad was giving babies vaccinations ,probably the same age as our baby son was at the same time . These men are human too, and need to come home, back to their families .

I gave 3 men lifts home this evening. Not that I'm intending to marry any of them.

This is so true.

In my experience, maladjusted arseholes typically attract arseholes.

Well adjusted, sensible people typically attract similar.

This applies to both men and women.

Women who routinely get into relationships with complete arseholes are usually just as awful as the men they attract.

That’s not opting out. When women want nothing to do with men, they take nothing to do with men. When men say they want nothing to do with women, they want sex with women without having to do any emotional labour or take actual responsibility.

Yes, I also have noticed that men bring competition to relationships - whether heterosexual or homosexual - that women don’t. I think straight men ascribe this competition or conflict to women’s behaviour but don’t realise that it’s in a lot of gay relationships too, or if they do they think, well, gay men are a bit feminine aren’t they, so it probably comes from that. But I think it comes from men; not women.

I think the idea you're struggling with is that women with these standards would rather not have a relationship than have one with a man who doesn't measure up. You seem to be seeing this as though men are a great prize, and if women want to win one, they shouldn't be so fussy and demanding, or they will never succeed. What women are saying is they no longer care enough about being with a man to tolerate substandard (whatever that means to them) behaviour, so will opt out.
Women can typically find sex easily enough if they want that, and as we've established, are capable of meeting their financial and practical needs and of raising children by themselves, so its a valid choice.
You keep referencing women trying to control and change men, when in reality, all they're doing is looking at the offer and deciding whether it's for them. If enough decide its not, then men who want them will need to change their offer, or opt out themselves. Men may indeed decide to opt out in their droves. Which is also valid.
Men and women living together in life long partnerships is a societal construct that had served a function. Nothing to say it always has to be that way if it no longer serves that function.

It is opting out of commitment and anything serious.

Does opting out for men and women differ, probably yes agreed as typically women want more commitment wise (perfectly understandable)

Oh I understand now. I found your first post somewhat pathetic and a bit sad, because you seemed to have been brainwashed into valuing commercialized superficial crap like expensive skin care and makeup and thought that made you more womanly than those with kids.

Now I see it’s about you actually preening yourself psychologically and thinking you are superior and somehow ‘winning’ over the poor dowdy woman with kids who H is shagging you, because you are superior because Skincare! And Lip crap!

Now I find your posts not somewhat pathetic but totally pathetic and really, really sad that you actually think you are winning because this pathetic lying man shags you. And your self esteem is actually tied up in that?

I never normally criticize OW, as I think responsibility lies firmly with the H. But your personality is like a bad parody of the Stereotyped psychology of OW.

Jesus, it’s genuinely pitiable.

Yep.

Those that have been through separation /divorce don't want to risk it again in many cases.

That's why at the outset i asked the OP if they were talking about a certain age demographic.

The men that have their own place and got back on their feet etc are going to see things a certain way. Which will inevitably lead to less options on the table for women in terms of serious commitment (the cocklodgers etc)

I think though my husband (in name only) isn't seeing other women he's got more opinionated, angry and intolerant. He's always been a good gaslighter.

@ThisOldThang no particular age demographic, I was responding to the myriad posts here about these men that women complain about. My husband was 28 when he had a one night stand with a woman at the work he was leaving in fact it was his leaving drinks. At 32 he had a six month affair with the daughter of a family friend and went to see her at university, she was 12 years younger. I found out about these eight years later when he left for another woman he'd been seeing for several years. Then she cheated on him and he came back. We've never slept together since. All ages are capable of it.

I think the same goes for women.
Most women I know who have been let down by a man they married and had kids with have no desire to replace them. In fact they very often find a huge sense of freedom not having them to look after. I assume men must therefore find themselves having to do a lot more to maintain themselves post divorce which must be time consuming and rather dull for them.

Maybe that's part of the new way of things; women getting a new lease of life post divorce and men having to start becoming responsible adults. Funny way to do the circle of life.