What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

Yet stats show single men do more poorly healthwise than married men, and for women it's the reverse. Relationships appear to deplete women's health but enhance men's. It's not difficult to work out why.

The MGTOW brigade convince themselves that they are teaching women a lesson by refusing to engage with them. I suppose they have to stay in denial because the truth is too painful for them 🤷🏼‍♀️

What women are saying is they no longer care enough about being with a man to tolerate substandard (whatever that means to them) behaviour, so will opt out.

Agreed @5128gap

A lot has happened since my mother, in the mid fifties, had no choice but to resign her job when she announced that she was getting married.

Her only access to income was, from then on, via her husband, my father. No wonder really that she trained me (or tried to) to put his comfort and preferences above her own.

This included having a meal ready for him when he came home, feeding the family within the budget that he set. No matter how busy, taking some time to 'freshen up' immediately before he was due to arrive. Leaving him in peace to decompress and then eat his meal before asking him any questions about our own wants and desires.

She was considered 'lucky' because he treated her with grace and dignity but there was no doubt about roles and responsibilities. Buying a new car she would pick the colour and he everything else.

The only thing it taught me was to be sure and earn my own money, so I can make my own choices.

I've also been 'lucky' to find decent men but would never share my home again. Why would I ?

I'm so glad to not have to depend on any man, especially not the kind we are told about on this thread. Goodness who would ?

I've no idea how big that group is, but perhaps it includes (subconsciously or consciously) the group of desirable men that women are chasing on dating apps.

How many threads are there on Mumsnet asking where all the decent men are? Perhaps they've simply opted out?

So are you saying that many of the MGTOW are actually also the 'Chads', ie they are not nerds with bad hygiene who live in their mum's spare room they are the the ones with the chiseled Adonis physiques?

@DWK123 all I can say is that I don't know any woman over 30 who has divorced who goes on dating apps. Maybe ones literally just divorced and wanting a quick something to celebrate with a younger man, but it's not something any woman I know bothers with. It's just something that used to be a thing about 20 years ago.

Meme musings on the subject

I've no idea.

I don't really know much about the movement, but isn't it about men that reject the idea of marriage and 2.4 kids and decide to just not bother with all that stuff?

You seem to be assuming (hoping?) that only those men that can't find a partner are using MDITOW as a cope, whereas there appear to be millions of men that have decided not to get married or have kids.

Perhaps that's your cope?

🤷‍♀️

What's MGTOW and MDITOW, please?

Sorry. I used the wrong acronym.

It is Men Go Their Own Way.

Incel & red pill 101, I don't think that's a woman.

This is delulu, IMO. That the opters-out and MGTOW includes the men that women are interested in as partners.

The men that women are interested in fall into one of two types largely - the decent ones who want to be in a relationship, commit, have kids, and the ones that will pretend to want that in order to access sex and domestic labour. I have never met a man whom women were interested in who did not take advantage of that.

I think your error is in the analysis that men have decided they will have sex with women but not marry them because women are asking for too much.

i think that men have on the whole always wanted to have sex with women but not marry them, but it used to be harder to do it. Now it’s an option, they’re more than aware that the best way to get sexual access to a woman is to pretend to want a relationship with her.

this thread is full of examples of men who just do that on repeat. It’s to their advantage in the short term and is a good reproductive strategy. However I personally don’t think it’s good for men themselves - as others mentioned, studies do bear out that single men have worse outcomes in life (earlier death; more drink, drug issues, more criminality) than married men.

Those statistics regarding outcomes could potentially be due to women rejecting those men associated with 'drink, drug issues, more criminality'. That would result in the piss heads, druggies and criminals with shorter life existence living alone.

If men living those lifestyles lived with a woman, they wouldn't magically live longer.

Certainly true from my ex. Signs of a barely hidden drinking problem, recreational drug use, no real close friends, back issues getting worse, bald and starting to get middle age spread - he's mid 40's now and not faring very well for his "lifestyle".

I imagine when the women stop turning up to fix his "broken heart" he might consider his options and buy a bride from a poor country and pretend to anyone interested he saved her. He's the type to believe he is doing it for their benefit too.

I just don’t think that’s true - I think often when men divorce or leave a relationship, they become involved in drugs or whatever, drink more, spend more time alone etc.

You under estimate how much women do for men. They cook, clean, encourage, get them to go to the doctor, make sure they have hobbies and keep up with friends. When kids are involved most dad's want to be around to help protect and nurture them. The good ones, anyway.

A large proportion of men don't do this for themselves if left to their own devices.

Agree… that’s definitely not a woman writing that.

Femininity isn’t about being steam rolled over and anyone suggesting so needs to take their views back to 1950.

I consider myself to be feminine and actually quite soft, but I also consider myself to not have to accept or tolerate being treated like a lesser being or always second to the needs of someone else.

Relationships are meant to be a respectful partnership, not a dictatorship with the woman saying yes sir no sir.

The doctor, my god, what IS it with men and not going to the GP!

Yes, I used to be absolutely enraged by NHS billboard ads specifically addressing women, telling them to get the men in their lives to have their prostate checks, as though men could not be expected to be responsible for their own health. Imagine ads telling men they’re responsible for getting their wives to have smears or mammograms.

I had to 'force' my wife to go to the doctor for additional checks after an abnormal smear test. It isn't just men that bury their heads in the sand.

It is sadly a well known fact in medicine that women notice lumps and bumps, odd behaviours and badger partners to go/make appointments with their healthcare professionals.

Not keeping up with friends is a huge issue for male MH as well as likelihood of having an active hobby. Those who have friends tend to do active hobbies and keep fitter than those who isolate. Women tend to bridge between the two by creating social events to keep friendships alive as well as enabling hobbies (washing kit/encouraging them to go out etc).

I assume you didn't make the initial appointment for her though - there's the difference. If that was a male issue, men wouldn't make the appointment.

Having fear in the face of an abnormal result is very common.

no one said it was just men that bury their heads in the sand FGS. We are saying that a large proportion of men will not attend the GP for any reason unless encouraged at great lengths by women and we believe that this in part contributes to the fact that men fare better when partnered.

I’m well aware of that. I don’t, however, think a public health campaign that explicitly gives women responsibility for managing their husband’s health is remotely appropriate. Women are not responsible for mitigating against male self-neglect.