What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

All women I have ever known will immediately and completely end any contact with a man they don't like. Women are the experts of ghosting.

I cannot fathom why any woman would stay with a man who is extremely dangerous and abusive.

You missed 99% of my point.
People you talk about have had relationships.
And kids / grandkids.
And are now choosing to be single.
Once they lived ’normal’ life / mode first.

They aren’t the people I was talking about.

Of course it’s better if it’s by choice / you got the kids / younger life lived and grew as acceptable part of society.

@shuggles ‘s opinion was so bizarre to me that I did as AS for the first time in my life - he’s a man. Even more mad that he would think he would know that his female acquaintances are not in abusive relationships because he does not perceive their partners to be horrible!

I cannot fathom why any woman would stay with a man who is extremely dangerous and abusive.

Because a man might start out being charming and coming over as caring and considerate, and by the time a woman realises he isn’t like that, she may already be in love, have moved in with in, have no place to go, no friends, no job - if he's persuaded her no one is quite good enough, he'll look after her, "oh yes, you can see your friends, I suppose I can get my own dinner after a hard day's work, but you know they don't really appreciate you as I do..."

Very few people start out in relationships with men who are obviously abusive. If the first thing you saw was them landing a punch in a bar, most people would avoid them. A lot will stay once they should their true colours, because they know he can be loving and fun, so she feels it must be something she did, if she just does what he wants, he'll get better again. And if he's beaten down your self-esteem over time, and if you grew up in a family where you were often told you were in the way, or no one could ever love you, or you didn't deserve more, then you might see it as the best you can get anyway.

What you cannot fathom reflects the limits of your capability - not the unlikelihood of the eventuality.

any understanding whatsoever of the effects of abuse and the dynamics of abusive male-female relationships would help you “fathom” what your brain finds so “unfathomable”.

also ghosting is not very relevant here, as often by the time abuse is seen for what it is by the woman suffering from it, she is married and has children with the abuser. Can’t ghost your husband can you??
you can’t possibly believe that abusive men are obviously abusive from the early weeks and months??

My husband when picking up my car: "I'm not driving this with frigging flowers in the back". It was a spring wreath from a floristry class. Hark at Andrew Tate.

But but but but the other manly menz
might see him and think he is a homosexual or worse, a CUCKOLD

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Men tend to instinctively have each other's backs. They understand (even if only implicitly) that it is generally in their interests to uphold and maintain the power structures that make up the patriarchal system that we live in.

Agreed. They also default to believing that men’s views are rational and “real” and that women’s are merely fanciful opinions.

hence what he sees as no abusive men = reality (but how would he see them, not being in a relationship with them???)

what women perceive as actually rather a large number of abusive men = “silly” (because women’s lived experiences are emotional and subjective)

@0sm0nthus Men tend to instinctively have each other's backs. They understand (even if only implicitly) that it is generally in their interests to uphold and maintain the power structures that make up the patriarchal system that we live in.

This is absolute nonsense. Other men would not care if anything bad happened to me, and I have direct experience of this. Other men would happily stab me in the back if they gained personally from it. Other men would not care if they accidentally killed me, so long as their wives and families were safe.

I never form close friendships with other men because I have long known that my life means nothing compared to their families.

I was speaking in a general sense. You seem unable to understand that your personal experience is not representative of general experiences.
From what you say you are an outsider or lone wolf type, so that could explain your lack of insight when it comes to the experiences of others?

And yet you refuse to believe that anything more than a tiny minority of men are abusive to their female partners.

if you have no close relationships with men, you are even LESS qualified to assess their characters, so I really don’t know how you’re so certain none of the men you know - not well, mind you, because they will stab you in the back - are not abusive to their partners.

@0sm0nthus I know you were speaking in a general sense. And I just explained to you that your general sense of the world has no basis in reality. Men do not look out for other men... maybe in the TV shows you watch, but not in the real world.

There is no evidence that anything more than a small minority of men are abusive to their partners.

Cool. I will remember that next time i see a poster get the hump when their parenting is questioned on here. Will tell them to cool their fluffed up ego,

Yeah, what’s your point?

This is exactly what I said in my post above. Men believe that what they think is reality, and what women think is fantasy.

So? Do you only believe things that there is evidence for?? What a plonker

He's doing the rounds telling women their lived experience isn't as good as his on other threads, as they tend to do on here.

Today my friend's husband opened his car door to a swarm of flies - he had left a box of maggots that had slid under the seat and slowly pupated. Charmers, the lot of them.

Well it's not your place to speculate that men look out for other men, without a single shred of evidence to support this.

@queenmeadhbh killing threads with boring and pointless observations and objections from his narrow viewpoint ad nauseam.

Enough to remind us once again of the OP...why do they choose to do this behaviour, repeatedly? Taking out all the air in the room despite it meaning everyone leaves it?

if you have no close relationships with men, you are even LESS qualified to assess their characters

Yet it was ok for that poster who had a go at me to call a man she doesnt even know a pathetic liar when she assumed he was married

MN hypocrisy at its finest.

🙄

what is “my place”? What does that mean? I can speculate whatever I want and I don’t need evidence. What a bizarre statement. Of course women are allowed to discuss what might be the motivations behind male behaviour. Why do you consider that to be unacceptable?

Couldnt stick too much in one post as im having problems with BT. It keeps dropping out as ive explained upthread. Am now having my second engineer visit within three weeks on Tuesday