What went wrong with men and what they see a relationship as?

[JaneFrances]

I'm well aware there are decent men. These aren't what I'm asking about.

Why do some men not want a healthy reciprocal loving relationship characterised by respect for each other, equality and having each others' backs? Why do they waste energy on controlling, bullying, gaslighting and abusive behaviour?

What is wrong with all the men complained about here? Wouldn't it be simpler to just be a worthwhile person?

It's not your place to tell anyone else what their place is!

Facts are important, and no one is free to wave their hand in the air and say whatever they want without data to support it. I'm sure you would be equally dismissive if someone made a similar sweeping generalisation about women.

There is no evidence that the majority of men are abusive, and there is no evidence that men look out for other men just because they are men. There is no "sisterhood" among men.

If someone is saying something completely unhinged, then yes, someone else can call them out on that.

I can think of numerous examples of men looking out for other men. You have said you don't form close relationships with other men, I would suggest that is the reason you've not benefited from the camaraderie that tends to exist between them.

Now you are talking about men supporting their male friends.

The original argument that was made was that men will support any man, just because they are men.

If someone is saying something completely unhinged
And you are the maestro @shuggles when it comes to that!😂

I am absolutely free to claim whatever I wish without evidence. Under what authority would I not have that liberty.

i agree with plenty of generalisations about women. I am pro-generalisation. Spotting patterns is how we understand the world.

also, men absolutely love brotherhood. It’s why they are so obsessed with the army and sports.

@queenmeadhbh I am absolutely free to claim whatever I wish without evidence. Under what authority would I not have that liberty.

In today's episode of 'clown planet'...

There is no "sisterhood" among men
translation, no one wants to be buddies with @shuggles

Speaking as a man this is total garbage. Men love seeing other guys in deep shit, especially if they are mates.

This x 1000.

I think women want men to have a relationship with and parent children with. They want an extra pair of hands as it were and a partner who cares and cherishes them. Unfortunately a lot of men do not pull their weight once dc arrive.
They are lazy. They also stop trying.
Men want a companion too.
They view their oh as having stopped trying when dc come along and they no longer strut about in God awful underwear and tacky clothing.
They shut their ears to cry’s for help. They call it nagging. They believe their partner will still find them attractive when they let themselves go, yet they expect their female oh to try a lot harder.
A lot of older men once single try and date younger women. They go along with having dc with the younger woman. The only reason they do this is to try and keep the woman. It is harder to leave when you have dc.
Until a lot more women stop having children I can’t see this changing.
It’s too expensive to have a child alone for most women. It’s also very difficult unless you have lots of support.

I think men are dicks to everyone but as men you get less of the dick-ish behaviour than women do.

You don't get them being as aggressive on the roads. You don't get them hearing your voice on the phone then becoming angrier or ruder. You don't get them cat calling and intimidating you when you are walking. You don't get treated differently if you don't look the way they like. And the rest.

There are occaisions when men step in when they see women being harassed on the street - like this for example https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/screaming-road-rage-driver-faces-32746417, but it is rare. Yet most men agree they've seen men harassing women openly. So why is it a huge surprise that men do this even more in private?

@chocolatecoveredpeanut You don't get them being as aggressive on the roads. You don't get them hearing your voice on the phone then becoming angrier or ruder. You don't get them cat calling and intimidating you when you are walking. You don't get treated differently if you don't look the way they like. And the rest.

This is a really weird comment. Fair enough, I have never been "cat-called" because most men are not attracted to other men, but I have received plenty of road rage (some of which would have landed me in hospital if I had made the mistake of pulling over), I have heard many rude and aggressive phone calls, and I have had plenty of people treating me different for being ugly.

Do you have male friends? What made you think the above is not applicable to men?

Yet most men agree they've seen men harassing women openly. So why is it a huge surprise that men do this even more in private?

I think I've seen about 2 or 3 cases of street harassment, all of which happened more than 10 years ago.

Yes I have a few male friends and they are well aware of how men treat women differently. If you can't see it, that's a you issue.

I think I've seen about 2 or 3 cases of street harassment, all of which happened more than 10 years ago
was that the last time you left your mum's basement?

Answer the question - by what law am I not allowed to state what I believe based on my own senses?

Just going to leave this here:

I think it's concerning that you have male friends who think that way. I suggest you find normal friends who treat women normally.

I live in the UK. We don't have basements here.

call them out, absolutely - personally I obviously think I am correct, not unhinged but I haven’t told you it is not your place to call me unhinged or to claim that it is a tiny minority of men who abuse women.

why do you get to say whatever you want, but I have a “place” and get chastised?

all of this besides the fact that you claim I am unhinged because there is no evidence for what I say, and yet there isn’t any evidence for what you say either.

people who are obsessed with facts and evidence have very poor intuitive skills. How’s that for another generalisation

@queenmeadhbh why do you get to say whatever you want, but I have a “place” and get chastised?

Because you're the one making things up.

? I am stating what I believe to be true based on my senses and brain. Why is it some people’s (yours) place to do that and not other people’s (mine), according to you?
is it because you believe your opinion to be correct and mine incorrect? If so, the logical fallacy there is enormous.

by the way, don’t think I don’t see what you are doing here, probably subconsciously. You are making outlandish comments about who has the right to say what, and now we are talking about that, rather than discussing the original topic, which was “what the fuck is wrong with men”. I rather think you’ve provided fodder for the thesis.

Only when the plight of the man has no impact on them, or has the positive impact of making them look better, or step into dead men's shoes. It's very different when a man or men are in the sort of bother or risk that may set a president that effects them. They are extremely supportive then.
You only have to consider the behaviour of many of the posters who admit to being men on here, falling over themselves to defend some random OPs badly behaved husband. They couldn't care less about him as a person, but when a man is criticised they see it as an attack on men in general, and therefore them personally, and are jumping all over it.

Yes, this is it.