Am I aggressive or just passionate?

[Wormworld7]

When is it okay to police somebody's personality?

This morning when discussing a totally irrelevant fact about babys vs animal intelligence, my interest piqued a little and I got a little passionate in conversation about how I felt about something within the conversation. This may or may not make any sense, but the topic is irrelevant, as it was so minor, to me was light hearted, not that deep, just a passing topic that touched on a subject of unjustness that bothers me.

I was eating porridge at the time and my partner stopped me in my tracks, just a few comments in, to say I was being aggressive, angry, shouting and waving my hands around aggressively. I wasn't. I genuinely wasn't. I have a strong voice. A strong sense of self and I carry my opinions as such, when I have them. I wasn't arguing against any point, simply just expressing my own view excitedly, and passionately, but also in a lowkey not too fussed kind of way, because I wasn't that bothered. It was just a fun conversation.

I was really hurt by being told I'm "too much" and I felt massively misunderstood. I didn't feel anger. I wasn't being aggressive. It was literally just a passing chit chat. He told me I don't know how to chill and have a nice peaceful morning. I was upset with being told I shouldn't be myself. I felt very much that this is what he was saying.

He said that I should respect how he felt, and he felt I was being aggressive. I said that's unfair, because I didn't intend to come across that way, and I meant no harm, but I felt attacked.

He said it being my "personality" is just an excuse and I should take accountability. What for?

I sobbed my heart out. I honestly feel like it should be considered a good quality of mine. I felt like he just doesn't like me and who i actually am.

We've spent all day now with him saying I've ruined his day, but I'm not sure what I actually did to ruin it?!

Can somebody really tell another person to tone it down when they're just being themselves, harmlessly? Can somebody really tell me I'm being aggressive, when I know that's not what i felt?

But what if somebody doesn't lile the way you laugh? Should you change that? Is that acceptable? I don't think so. But where is the line

There isn't one. We all have different lines. It's what makes us individuals.

This is about where you draw your line, rather than about where the line is.

Yeah, that makes sense. I sometimes assume there are collective invisible rules here. For some stuff there defo is.

I'd assumed this sort of thing, the line borders controlling someone or trying to mold them into something they're not.

Well it turns out, personally this is my line, if it feels personal, it is. And I don't like that. It seems unfair.

Why have posters repeatedly tried to gaslight the OP or make up their own narrative on this thread? Sorry @Wormworld7 people really do not like the idea of women having any kind of opinion. As it comes across as aggressive 🙄
You repeatedly said you didn't raise your voice or point, you will have noticed that the majority of posters ignored what you had actually written and subsequent posts in their rush to berate you. A woman with a mild opinion.
Look, with his history, the fact that you are pregnant with an 11 month old, this isn't going to get better. You know that right? He will continue to batter your self esteem till there is nothing left.
Now he's seen how much he got to you, that will be his go to. Do not bring your children up in that house. No man is worth it.

This, with bells on.

Thank you for this. I've found this happens a lot in this space on MN. I had to read back my OP a number of times to make sure I'd made it clear, no matter how many times I read it back I still had people telling me I must have been aggressive or shouting, when in my post j hadn't been questioning that. I was very certain hence my firm.stance. I don't think there is much hope from here, I know you're right. It's easier to keep staying though and having some kind of hope. Breaks ups are hard and especially when they're being blamed on things that aren't happening. Its frustrating to walk away without both parties acknowledging what's actually going on. I guess that what he's doing, disempowering me.

You are welcome @Wormworld7 unfortunately Mumsnet is not very supportive of women at the moment. Why, I don't know. The misogyny from other women blows my mind. This past week has been awful, especially the amount of posters encouraging women to stay in dv relationships.
Anyway back to you, I get it, it is easier to stay. Especially with what you have on your plate. So my advice is as always, get your head down and make a plan for if it becomes too unbearable. Make a long term plan too. The next time he attempts to make you feel like shit, a simple but firm 'I don't appreciate what you are trying to do. Please stop' and don't engage anymore. No more crying. Don't give him that power. I would perhaps start a diary. This is important with someone who insists you behaved a certain way when you didn't, you have it in black and white. Download an app so it's on your phone and keep it hidden.
Concentrate on you, you baby and staying well for the rest of your pregnancy. Remember, it isn't personal, hes just a prick trying to bring you down. He would do the same with any woman cos he's just abit shit and needs someone to take out his own inadequacies on.
Good luck and stay strong.

I sometimes assume there are collective invisible rules here. For some stuff there defo is

There are no rules. There might be collective behaviours that a high proportion of people favour, but you don't have to stick to them. Like going to bed at around 11pm, for example. Most people would say that that's the right thing to do, if you're an adult with responsibilities. But it's not a rule, and if your circumstances are different, you don't have to do what everyone else is doing. If you work nightshifts, say, or if you're self employed and can work variable hours.

There are categorically not defo rules about anything to do with emotions. He is allowed to not like it when you do what you call 'passionate'. You are allowed to be what he calls 'aggressive'. Even if you were being aggressive, that's allowed too. No rules. He gets to decide if he wants to be around you or not. If he decides he does, but he wants to whinge and try to change you, you get to decide whether to be around him or not.

Looking for 'collective rules' is looking for self invalidation. Your life is for you to live by your rules, and you'd be happy if you based your rules around your feelings, rather than what other people are collectively doing/advise you to do. This is boundaries 101.

Did he actually say all these things or is this just more hyperbole on your part, much like the sobbing all day was?

I too think it’s a bit of this. I think the reason you got upset is because you feel shame as he’s saying you are wrong as you are.

so you may be really annoying and he’s sick of you or you may be being totally gaslit by him so you know your place. Only you know. Fact though that he then went back and said you’d ruined his day is a bit odd. That sounds again like he’s trying to shame you. He’s either cruel or emotionally immature. Either way it doesn’t seem a nice place to be.

can you sit down and have a calm conversation with no blame? Are you a couple who after the dust settles can chat though and both say well I was a bit of an arse?

Thank you @Iaskedyouthrice for your clear explanation of the general narrative on this thread. I could sense the wrong-thinking of responses, but it took your clear-sighted post to make sense of it.

Also agree with the poster who quoted about not dimming your light to make someone else feel OK. Or something like that.

I recognise some of this in the younger me. I have the sort of brain that works at 100mph and makes it difficult to slow down and relax, and I'm sure some people find that exhausting. But like many people I've found that as I get older I have less to say. Like you I don't talk over people or refuse to listen to others' views (I love a good exchange of contrary opinions, it's healthy) but I am articulate and am aware I get intense when discussing something I'm passionate about.

My DH once gently told me, many years ago now, that sometimes in these contexts I was unaware of how vehemently I could come across. I've not attempted to change my entire personality, but did take this point under good advisement and acted on it. That seems to me the fundamental difference between my situation and yours. My DH tactfully pointed out a truism that hadn't occurred to me before, because we don't always see ourselves as others do. It wasn't said in anger, nor was it a fundamental criticism of something that was intrinsically me.

Your partner's response was a deeply personal criticism of your individual personality traits, boiling down to the implication that he doesn't like who and what you are. No one can seriously claim that they wouldn't be discomfited by this. And of course you shouldn't change the way you are naturally: my one piece of constructive advice is 'read the room' and judge whether the mood is conducive to that kind of lighthearted chit chat at the time.

This may or may not be relevant to your case, but I find it a bone of particular contention that behaviour which in a man might be termed assertive or articulate, in a woman is often interpreted as 'aggression'. There is every possibility that some misogyny is at play in your DP's response to your behaviour. You'll know that better than anyone else, as there are likely other indications.

Your posts tend to suggest someone who was already questioning the state of your relationship, and this particular situation has brought those questions to the forefront of your attention. IMO, you're right to pay attention to them.

The sobbing we'll put down to hormones on this occasion

How big of you. Continue in this tone and you'll be handing her out 1000 lines next.

Woman expresses a fundamental concern about the state of her relationship. Because she's pregnant, it therefore follows that she's lost her grip on her rational mind and must be hormonal.

And to top it off, we have the old protestation that 'he could be ND'.

Gods forbid that a woman might, just might, have a valid concern or is trying to work her way through a growing relationship problem.

Do you have any idea of the fundamental, deep-rooted misogyny behind such statements?

Is it acceptable to police his feeling? Because that's what you're doing. There's two possibilities, you came across as aggressive to him which does not necessarily mean you were or he's saying you're aggressive to shut you down. Reading your posts I can see why you could come across as combative. I'm familiar with the later though and what a mind fuck it can be and how that spills over.

The very few times I didn't back down when XH was being nasty or aggressive he'd accuse me of yelling at him and being aggressive and how he wasn't going to let me treat him that way. The one time that stands out it was because I was standing in the doorway to our kids room, and I wasn't going to let him into the room to yell at and scare them, so he screamed at me instead and started accusing me of being aggressive and mistreating him. I don't know what you're like, none of us really do. I don't know if the way you're coming across is because you're confused and gaslit and trying to hold onto some little bit of reassurance or if you really are combative.

Reading your posts I can see why you could come across as combative

Why out of interest? I think she held her composure remarkably well considering poster after poster told her she WAS aggressive despite what she had actually stated.

I never said I'd sobbed all day. I said I sobbed my heart out. And yes he said those things, that's why I wrote them. I have no reason to lie or exaggerate

He sounds like a cunt, you can do much better.

Thanks. I felt a bit like I was drowning among yesterdays comments. I don't really get why my attempt at being heard is seen as combative. I was seeking reassurance from the scenario from MY perspective. Not his. And in my way of presenting the facts, the upset was over the fact that I wasn't shouting or being aggressive and I stated that calmly after he tried calling me out. I didn't get defensive, I simply stood my ground against him trying to paint me a certain way, because it wasn't true and it felt unfair.

I don't know, if knowing what the truth is, is combative and wanting that to be heard, then okay. He has every right to his feelings, but he made them my fault, which I don't think is fair. He can feel what he feels, fair enough, and should be able to communicate that to me with love and kindness and from a perspective if working together. I wasn't being aggressive or pointing in the way he claimed and it felt very unfair to continually be told I was by him. Am I supposed to confess to things I haven't done and apologise? He can FEEL whatever he likes. But I hadn't raised my voice and wasn't pointing and flailing my arms around like his interpretation of it. I was simply speaking how I speak the majority of the time. With the use of my hands. With confidence with a joyous and quote curious innocence. I wasn't to ever forsee that behaviour would be upsetting to somebody who spends their life with me. So when he kept telling me that those behaviour was his exaggerated version, it mattered to me that I was misunderstood in that way. I wasn't whispering and I know that, and I wasn't shouting either, and I also know that. I actually have quite a good sense of self awareness and I don't struggle being very present in all situations, unlike him. So often when he recounts an incident after, he may say I was shouting when j know I wasn't.

Thank you. And I do feel that I'm starting to see some very deep rooted misogyny in his behaviour and the way he treats me. He has very little understanding of woman In general, comes form a family of 4 boys, went to an all boys school, his father was verbally abusive to his mother, so doesn't have much in the way of positive role modelling.

He also thinks that crying can be used as a manipulation tool, and pushed this rhetoric often. I'm honestly dumbfounded at that notion. I'd never maliciously weaponise a display of emotion, I simply cry to regulate my nervous system and to release what I'm feeling. He has come from a family of people being told they aren't allowed to show emotion, for it makes them weak. He shows no empathy for my tears because he thinks they're part of a game and feels clearly threatened by my showing of emotion, because he could never allow himself

Thank you, and I too can relate to that in my younger self, and as I've gotten older, I definitely have a lot less to say also. I dont tend to have opinions for the sake of having opinions anymore. And I don't jump from topic to topic in the way I used to, I actually find that conversation style overwhelming, but I can empathise as I used to be a lot more "adhd" in my style.

Contrary to how this post reads OH is actually like this himself. He can flit between topics and he can delve into passionate rants about things he cares about. I love that about him, I'd never want to stop somebody in their tracks and I have a lot more patience for people than he does. So it all seems very rich, that he decides what time of day and when we can go there, even thoigh in this instance I really wasn't going anywhere! Which is what makes it feel even more and attack on my general character. I have enough self awareness to kniw when I'm being annoying. Calling me out for me being myself feels personal.

My DH has ADHD and gets passionate about lots of things. It's one of the many reasons I love him to bits. He's definitely a bit much first thing in the mornings though. Especially at weekends, when he doesn't always take his meds and I want to chill and read the paper whilst he waxes lyrical about his latest idea.

So I have quite a lot of sympathy for your DH here. Except that I don't tell my DH to be less of himself, instead I tell him that I need some peace.

So, while I think you could probably be a bit more aware of the impact you are having OP, your DH should be able to state his needs without criticising you and your communication style.

@Wormworld7 He was 100% out of order.

Do you think he did it deliberately or do you think he genuinely doesn't understand passionate people?

You sound like my kind of person, for what it's worth.

He doesn't like you. He doesn't like you as a person. When you don't like someone, every little non-thing they do becomes a huge ick. He clearly has no interest in working on his dislike of you, but tbh it is nearly impossible to change that once it happens anyway.

This relationship is going nowhere good. It will only get worse when the baby arrives. You will be better off spending the rest of your pregnancy working on how to co-parent together.

Thanks. And it's important here that you stated that it's something you love about him. But as I have stated, I wasn't being the things he has said I was. I get that sometimes we just don't quite see ourselves, but I know that this moment happened so quickly, it was almost lile he preemptively acted on a mood I might have been in, rather than a mood I was actually in. I wasn't being aggressive or flailing around like he said I was. He has to exaggerate my actions in order to get his point across. Probably because simply stating "I don't like who you are" isn't an acceptable thing to say to somebody

Thank you! I actually don't know. He himself can be passionate and we share similar traits. I actually believe that from a young age he was told that he's "too much", which is where this idea that its acceptable to tell someone they're too much, comes from. What I was getting from the situation was that he has always been told to be smaller, minimise himself and be less than. Don't complain, don't get too excited. Yet as an adult, he's actually guilty of doing it all too. I'm.actualkh starting to believe that because he struggles to communicate in a healthy way, he has festered so many internal thoughts about me, that he now does actually just dislike me and resent me.