Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

@C1N1C not fat, employed non-alcoholic that is slightly taller than an average woman (which most men are) is a long list?

Flipping heck Dh actually ticks all those boxes - better watch my back in case he is stolen away!

When you ask a woman what she's looking for in a man, to quote @Squidlette above (sorry, this may have changed since your 20s!): Taller, Good looking, Not fat, Working, No kids, Into same/ similar music, Good in bed, Not a heavy drinker, Not a twat... it's not a small list. That list is considered 'acceptable', this woman is right to have standards. But when you ask a woman what she 'provides' in return for that list, it's often met with "he gets me!". Imagine a man saying that, or indeed, the opposite 'male' list: shorter, slim, housewife, virgin, non-argumentative... that would be considered offensive.

look again at those lists that you’ve presented as comparable.

taller —— shorter (fine)
good looking ——
not fat —— slim (seriously not the same thing)
working —— housewife (WTF?)
no kids —— virgin (again: WTF?)
into same/similar music ——
good in bed —— (well the expectation is virgin!)
not a heavy drinker —— not argumentative (which presumably means something close to doormat 🤦🏻‍♀️)

There’s a reason the list you proposed is seen as offensive.

Why would I be offended?

Because someone uses intelligence theory, to try and prove a point? And lists 'competency in the kitchen' as an attribute women should have.

I am not offended. I find it baffling.

You say there was one thread. Yet stated 'women are no better'. You grouped women into a whole then talked about their dating f preferences

Women that I know don't want men with a six pack. It's just not a thing in RL for most women.

The pressure to have a 6 pack actually comes from other men. Other men saying women want a man with a 6 pack. While I guess there would be some women who like a 6 pack, there's no droves of women only dating men with 6 packs.

And that's fine, they can be shits, hate women and single. Then there is no bar, low or otherwise if no woman puts up with it. Maybe they'll learn that if they want a partner they have to treat them respecfully. Failing that they can be single their whole lives, who cares? Everyone has the choice then, win-win!

A high proportion of men are pretty shit and have very little, if anything, to offer in a relationship.

But on the other hand, a relationship is not a right. No one forces women to get into one with a man. Women are better at being independent and lead a fulfilling life by themselves than most men are, and doing it without living in filth.

If you don't find a decent, kind, respectful man... stay single.

Women did. They accept shitty men and let them get away with it Women need to expect more and value themselves much more.

‘Psycho guy planning to conquer this land for me, what should I do?’

In what way are women any better?