Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

The internet gives men multiple choices. Maybe they choose who lets them lower the bar. I have been in a situation while dating where the guy tried to change his behaviour. I ended it. He chose the other woman. (Who I didn’t know about until afterwards) Maybe it was love maybe she had less boundaries…

Men are sex obsessed. If they can get sex easily and off multiple women then they're less invested. On the other hand there's plenty of men who can't get sex (incels) and they're even less invested.

As cynical as I am I genuinely don't think all me view women they date as sex workers who may require a little more or little less investment

if this is their thinking then sooner or later a man like that will stop putting effort in anyway

Men have always been horrible to women. Always. No one lowered any bar- we’re just more free to talk about it now, and more free to choose or not choose.
they’ve historically treated women absolutely horribly.
those examples you gave? Poems, letters, paintings, songs … idealizations only.

have you ever been put on a pedestal? It’s the worst. It’s another trap, and another way of telling a woman she can’t be a human being, but must be a statue, a doll, a piece of property, to be held up or discarded or sold at a man’s whim. All for his ego.
Speak up? They’d burn you as a witch.

nothing has changed, except we are moving away from the gaslighting work of centuries.

keep questioning, OP, and keep noticing, because they should not be getting away with crap behavior. Far better to be free than to accept poor treatment. It’s time for us to say “enough.”

OLD has definitely changed the landscape but we haven’t evolved yet to navigate it effectively. So we see women expecting to be woo’d and pursued and for men to make the same effort they would have in the wild but men thinking of it it as a way get sex (or gratification re dick pics etc) from women with no effort
Previously the ‘pool’ of available partners would be confirmed to the size of your immediate acquaintance and you have known about people’s past/marital status/family etc which would have weeded out most of them. There were also far less older people ‘dating’ or the concept of multiple partners/FWB etc.
We have been freed of the constraints and misery of societal expectations
but that means having to work out our own boundaries -that’s difficult and there hasn’t been enough time for us to adjust.
People are unwilling to go for paid sites, but that probably is the way forward -the ‘quality’ men my friends have met seem to be there more than on the ‘free’ apps.

As l saw on FB the other day, these definitely aren't the men Jolene was begged not to take

However l don't think men lowered the bar. I think women upped it. We aren't willing to be wooed - isn't that love bombing these days? We want someone who's actions and words align, which men seem to have a problem with; someone who brings something to the table.

What l miss about my ex is he did the driving and carried my shopping bags. Oh and organised my mot. I can't really think of anything else. I can do all those things myself.

I’m far from a MRA but do you think a similar thread could be written in reverse? Genuine question. I’d be interested to know whether men feel the quality of women has declined as well. And therefore just people in general.

Well historically you married who you were told to marry and often at a very tender age. Or you married because you were pregnant. Most women were married by 20. My mother married at 24 and was considered old. So your brain wasn’t fully formed, you were at no point independent - straight from father to husband and a mother soon after.

Men didn’t have the ability to pick and choose like they do now, you tended to marry a local girl. Women still want the same things - children, stability, kindness. Men still want the same thing - sex, adventure and freedom.

another sad thought - the recipients of these love letters were mostly lovers or women these men failed to "woo"

their wives got nothing or they never got wives because they were not that good of a catch

The things you described in your OP were done generally by young men who were in love. I think young men who are in love still make a big effort. I imagine some older guys make an effort when they are in love too but not as much.

I think maybe it’s being in love that is the key. This is probably sexist but I think many men have sexual relationships without being in love. They keep them going for convenience. Will move in and even marry for convenience which is why we read about so many half arsed relationships on here.

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved

and the following day they might have been killed, or injured or gassed, 20M men died in WW1 and the same again were injured - that’s hardly romantic

The bar was always low for men.

focusing on some grand romantic gestures doesn’t change that. Especially not when so many of the gestures you list simply focus the attention on the man and how amazing he wants the world to see him as is.

Just to play devils advocate, I’ll say yes.
all the gestures the OP was referring to come from a time when females were “chaste”, ( is that the word), but in comparison if you look at the level of Sexualization of young women in society you could argue that the “quality “ of women has declined

and now I will run and hide

This is exactly why I say that the bar has actually been raised. In the times the OP romanticises, abuse, control and domestic violence were accepted as the norm. Getting a man to "pull is weight"? Forget about it.

Feminism has meant that women's expectations of men have soared. And while a lot of men still don't meet them, many have managed to keep up and adapt.

So many reasons. Sadly I think looks matter and have always done so, and this cuts across all social classes.
If you're lucky enough to be beautiful, you'll have a pick of quality men when you're in your 20s. If you pick a kind, hardworking and honest man (not a given obvs) then you've taken him off the market. As a woman, the pool of these men steadily dwindles as you head into your 30s. If you come out of a marriage as a woman in your late 40s or 50s, then zilch. Absolutely no chance that any such man is still around. If they've become divorced, then they're dating the hot women 10-20 years younger than themselves.

DOI. Average looking woman, late 40s with my own financial means and young kids to support. I've given up on meeting anyone else now!

Do women not want sex, adventure and freedom then? I certainly prize those things above children and stability. I also know plenty of men for whom a settled, stable domestic life was always what they wanted.

I really hope at some point we can move past the stereotypes of "women all want this, men all want that".

I've lurked on a lot of MRA boards and can confirm that yes, the idea that "western women have declined in quality" is widespread there. Comes down to women having lots of sex. The slut-shaming I see all over MN is the flipside of the same coin.

And look how that turned out. The balance of power shifted in that relationship a very long time ago.

I genuinely don't know how I'm managing to type this as my eyes have rolled so far back into my head that I can't actually see any more.

Well bully for you that you've only ever met wonderful men. You must be so much more special than the rest of us.

@Fs365 there is quite a lot of debate in SM about how some men are bemoaning the state of contemporary womanhood. Apparently for these men it’s awful that women now aren’t keen to act like demure household appliances who supply sexual on demand. They’re extremely unhappy that women expect men to treat them like human beings and other own housework and so on.

I don't know if you are an incel or not, so I'll respond in good faith, as if you are a woman.

I think you're being daft here. I'm from the art world and probably know more than the average about art history. Those muses were often objectified in their own ways (particularly the 19th century ones I feel). The male artists were interested in those women as an embodiment of an archetype, not as full personalities. So they were valued as an embodiment of the fallen woman, or a virginal, pure queen, but not necessarily fully valued or recognised in the way women want. That doesn't mean that certain behaviours these days is better though.

The internet enables a lot of infidelity and piss taking, and I think the effect of hardcore porn on the attitudes of young men is bad, but I think a lot of modern manifestations of unpleasant behaviour is rooted in age-old misogyny and male entitlement.

Even if the majority of women suddenly adopted a far more ruthless or traditional approach to sex and marriage, it wouldn't change those men's personalities. The dysfunction would simply move elsewhere. Instead of men sleeping around, misleading and ghosting women (which has the benefit of revealing who they are very quickly so you at least women don't waste their time), you would get many more men waiting until marriage or children before revealing who they really are.

This still happens today. If you spend enough time looking at women's posts, there are many stories of women who met someone who they thought were nice & treated them well, only to turn out into nasty, abusive pieces of work once they thought they had the woman locked down either through marriage or pregnancy. It happened to a friend of mine - he only became physically violent after she was pregnant.

If these men still exist today, they absolutely existed in the past.

@gannett I haven't seen much slut shaming on Munsmet personally.

I have however seen many women provide support to other women to say no to things they are sexually uncomfortable with.

No to being ok with fetishes. No to being ok with him watching porn. No to him having female 'friends' whom he flirts with over Whatsapp. No to choking or anal, and no to being ok with your male partner being a transvestite, wanking in your underwear and called him 'she'.

There's slut-shaming all over this very thread. Multiple posts blaming women who dare to enjoy casual sex for men's bad behaviour.

No she wasnt. She was someone who, maybe unconsciously, believes that women's worthiness was tied to how many sexual partners they had.

It's internalised misogyny. Because shitty men often tie women's worth to sex. But they tie it in a way that women can't win. They want a virgin. But they also want someone who is experienced and knows what they are doing. But if you have experience, you are a slut. But if you are inexperienced or not willing to do lots of different things sexually straight away. Then you are also worthless.

Women's worth being tied to sex is something that is designed to ensure women can't win either way. Women buying into it in 2024 is just shocking.

Incel culture proves men don't becomes more respectful if they don't have sex.

Men in history didn't do the things you list because the bar for how they treated women was higher. They did it because they were going to do those things anyway, for profit, for self expression, as part of the expected display of masculinity at the time. The woman they centred it on were merely a prop, an object or a necessary assessory for their sense of manhood. In reality, women were viewed and treated appallingly in society and in private. The bar for the level of performance men need to engage in in order to get sex or a relationship has dropped for sure, they just don't bother pretending anymore.