Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

And that's why NO woman should put up with their crap, then they wouldn't be able to find a woman who would... Please don't be obtuse and say that a man who can't be bothered to do housework because he's never been sat down and had it explained to him why he needs to, is the same as a true abuser. I think we all know the difference between low level uselessness that's allowed to get away with it and an abuser. One may turn in to the other, which is why I'm arguing for the bar to be raised the second a man tries to lower it so it never gets to the abuse stage.

I also realise that some men are very clever and women are entrenched, but that is not what I am talking about.

It's a bit of an odd comparison. I'm sure 100 years ago a woman was wandering around a gallery bemoaning that Fred never paints her like these great artists did, or sighing over a book of poetry and wondering why she never inspires a sonnet. The average man did not do those things! And people wrote letters because they couldn't text or phone.

It was the same in the 70s. We were fair game at work to with age 50 plus men thinking they were entitled to sex with an 18 year old virgin.

Long before the internet men a decade older than my dad would hit on us at work.

I agree, and men who didn't make an effort stayed single, it seperated the men from the boys i suppose.

So once they’d found a woman who liked them, they’d stick with her as it was too much effort to go through the whole potentially humiliating rigmarole again.

That just proves they weren’t better at courting, dating or relationships.

They found one that liked them and stuck with her, because it was easier than starting over again. That’s not romantic or putting effort in.

People who are saying ‘if women didn’t put up with it, men wouldn’t do it’ are wrong. More women aren’t putting up with it. And we have had the explosion of incel theory. That blames women for not putting up with it for everything that’s wrong in their lives.

In most places for thousands of years most women didn’t get the opportunity to ‘not put up with it’. There was no choice. But men’s behaviour is women’s faults

As more and more women don’t put up with it and have more freedom to choose when to stay and when to leave, it’s still our fault because us having the choice and using that choice has meant they have ‘devalued sex’ so men won’t put in effort. Women’s fault again. It beggars belief.

To be fair in those examples men are presumably already in love. I think that when people, including men, are in love then they behave in the same way as always. The problem is that now with online dating and the disintegration of the expectation that a relationship becomes serious (which can also be a good thing, don't get me wrong) that it's acceptable to just date without being in love and without intending to make a life long commitment. If you're going on loads of dates they won't all be special, and they won't all be love.

Yes, it's always women's fault. It's even in the Bible.

The story of Adam and Eve is "you made me do it'.

@datcherygrateful

Would be nice to be treated nicely and to be courted and to be appreciated and have efforts reciprocated

What efforts are you putting in that should be appreciated and reciprocated?

Treated nicely should go without saying and as far as I can tell courted generally means the man chasing/working for your attention.

But if MN is anything to go by the effort that some women want to put in is to look pretty and get everything paid for.

(awaits flaming)

Dh has never painted a picture of me (or taken a decent photo), or written me a poem or built me a palace. He's always treated me well though. And fed me. And washed my car.

Poems are nice and all, but most of them were written to get in women's or to show off. And often had an idealised view of women anyway- usually beautiful and quiet.

"But if MN is anything to go by the effort that some women want to put in is to look pretty and get everything paid for."

Bingo! Drink! Choose whichever you prefer.

Agree. I don’t want to be ‘courted’ I want to be treated like an equal. Effort needs to come from both sides.

Yea there’s far too many women settling for a low bar man but equally I’ve seen many posts from women bemoaning why men aren’t pursuing them and why they shouldn’t pay a penny on dates.

Theres always been good partners and crap partners, I think it’s just more out in the open now. Years ago women stayed home in miserable marriages and didn’t rock the boat as they had no career or money. Now they’re more likely to say ‘fuck this shit’ and walk away.

The premise of this thread doesn't work on any level.

The "bar" isn't determined by OTT romantic gestures which have no correlation to how a man treats you and how much he respects you. If you don't recognise this, you're lowering your own bar, because it means any man can pull the wool over your eyes if he just buys you a big enough bunch of flowers.

Secondly I don't really believe in any objective "bar". It's an individual thing. Finding a partner isn't about measuring men on a universal scale but finding someone you're compatible with. For example, as you might have gathered, I don't care for romantic gestures - neither giving nor receiving. So for me, it's not "lowering the bar" if my partner doesn't do them - it's exactly what I want. On the other hand, if romantic gestures are important to you, it's up to you to find someone that they're equally important to.

I actually think the bar has been raised substantially for men in my lifetime, and that's because women have the power to choose, particularly if they're educated and financially independent. When I talk to men in my generation, and even more when I see younger men, they're hugely more progressive than their fathers' generation when it comes to equality. Obviously there's a long way to go still but I'd be far more optimistic about finding a good partner in 2024 than in 1994.

When I read mean-spirited, pursed-lips, slut-shaming comments like this, I just feel very proud to have contributed with my decade of highly enjoyable commitment-free sex.

Ok, but are they wrong? I understand the instinct is to cling to feminist ideals and so on, but are they actually wrong if you can think about it objectively?

Well, see above in my previous post for the reasons I think this entire conversation about an objective "bar" is reductive. But yes, if you think that encountering low-quality men is a result of other women having the enjoyable casual sex that they want to have, that's batshit. Most men I've slept with have been decent people. I found a brilliant partner who started as a ONS. So personally, my bar has never been low, and I've never had to lower it.

Yes they are wrong.

I think history only remembers the exceptional men - the rest did bare minimum like they do now

unfortunately women are often told to never expect anything and suddenly expectation that a guy pays for a coffee he invited a woman to is too much

they simply don't understand that this is the absolute least they could do and its about the gesture, not 3 quid they are expected to pay

and as for the good old slut shaming - it's not a fault of women having casual sex that men don't respect all women. they didn't respect us in more prude times either

and the purity-obsessed ones tend to be the biggest assholes

Us women set the bar. I divorced my exH because he took me for granted, was rude, lazy and unfair. I can’t imagine he’s changed at all but he’s been with his present GF for a good while. Maybe her bar is lower 🤷🏼‍♀️

That happened to ex’s grandmother who was a poor widow with two teenage boys 14 and 16. She found someone “willing” to marry her and “provide” for her but the boys had to move out and fend for themselves. She was told the day before the wedding - what could she do? Apparently he wasn’t a very nice man and when she got dementia, she went back in her mind to being married to the first husband and his pictures went back up the wall. Fortunately husband 2 had died by then.

Yes, and I laughed at my mum for telling me this as a teen. But she was right in a way.

Little girls should not be brought up on fairytales. They are disappointed when it is not real life.
At some point their eyes will open about men, sometimes after decades with someone. Tell your daughters all the shocks they can possibly expect…

Women would have hunky robots too. I know I would but it would be an all rounder.

That's because there are no men anymore, only boys.

As with most things these days the internet and apps changed the landscape which has also influenced women's behaviour.