Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

Women lowered the bar. You only have to read the threads on here to see what women put up with.

But women put up with the same and worse for eons, so how have they lowered the bar?

Arguably more women are putting up with less than ever before.

And for whoever asked about the pill

I read somewhere- The price of everything'
That the pill may have liberated us sexually, but meant that the value of sex in the eyes of men has fallen, as they no longer had to work for it, because it became so available?

Not sure, but that was an angle in the book

Theres absolutely no proof men, as a whole, were any better at courting in the past than they were now.

Thank you beautifully summarising and rebutting the craziness of this thread.

See this is utter rubbish.

What proof do you have that men have ever, in large numbers, only ever had sex with one woman their entire life?

The value of sex falls because women feel able to enjoy it without being married? Do you realise the pure misogyny there?

Women deserve to be treated better because you think they gatekept sex better? That’s what you think happened? That’s what you thinks women’s worth is wrapped up in.

Now they have sex more freely, men can’t help treat them badly?

To be pedantic;

"some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love"

.. are hardly dating behaviours, in any age.

When I were a lass (and everything round ere were green fields) courting was getting pissed, having a snog and getting fingered on the way home. Then you understood you were 'going out' and that was it.

I distinctly remember not understanding the concept of dating AT ALL in fact it felt very American and my friends and I (by then older and had boyfriends) thought it sounded very wishy washy 🙂

Glad I don't have to/ need to bother with this anymore.
Set up for life and happy without analysing these
pillocks.

So many of these posts are blaming women.

@CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment "So many of these posts are blaming women."

Of course. It's always women's fault!

This is very simplistic thinking and it isn’t based in reality. Is it Ai or something?
If an art gallery gave you this impression, you’re really barking up the wrong tree!
A little investigation into male artists over time can tell you all you need to know about that… Lucien Freud? Picasso? Just a couple of the many male artists elevated to God status for their artistic talents and given free rein to treat their (numerous) muses like absolute shit.

The world is full of shit women and shit men, but it’s also full of good people of both genders too.
It’s not an issue pertaining to one gender; the amount of dating I did back in my younger years where there was zero effort from women is depressing.

Totally agree with you OP. I was at a speed dating event last night and even the male organiser said he saw the big disparity between the men and women that come in. The women seem to have it together while the men struggle with effort. Not sure what’s happened.

Definitely romanticising the past there. Domestic abuse was rife, women were the property of men, raping your wife wasn’t even considered a crime and adultery was accepted behaviour. I don’t think you can really compare the past to the present.

If I was to try though, I don’t think the bar has been lowered at all, I think men are held accountable more than ever for their actions and most women do have higher standards and expectations. If anything, the internet has made it more difficult for both men and women to have realistic expectations for a partner and made it easier for them to move onto the next one. I don’t think it’s a gender specific issue.

But it IS our fault, because WE put up with this shit! If a lot (not all, there are definitely exceptions!) of the women who start the threads about their crap husbands had just said "NO! I do not accept this" or walked away when they were treated badly then men would realise they need to up their game if they want a woman in their life.

I am a woman, I am a feminist, I am responsible for my life, I do not look to blame lame ducks who bring nothing to my life. I was very careful in my choice of mate and he was, and is, under no illusion that at the very first sign of treating me less-than, then I am gone. I cannot control how he thinks, how he behaves, how he thinks he can treat me. I can however, absolutely be responsible for how I respond to that and what I will accept.

Who else is to blame if it isn't us for accepting being treated so badly or for not actively counteracting bad influences? Are we really just helpless saps at the whim of the men? Not I...

I think the bar has been lowered in many ways throughout society. Not just men.

If a lot (not all, there are definitely exceptions!) of the women who start the threads about their crap husbands had just said "NO! I do not accept this" or walked away when they were treated badly then men would realise they need to up their game if they want a woman in their life.

That's not really how abusers work.

There have always been shit men. We don't have the letters of all the men in the trenches who couldn't be arsed to write letters, because... they never wrote them.

Very few men were artists, and they'd have not been grinding pigments and mixing them with oils if others weren't paying them to do so. Plus Luzzie Siddal (the model for Millet's Ophelia) almost died of hypothermia. Lots of artists' models were prostitutes. Plus lots of artists drew porn - it just ended up in private collections rather than public art galleries. Also some things artists did were creepy and stalkerish - like cutting off an ear snd sending it to a woman. A lot of what films and books show as romantic behaviour, not giving up - it's harassment and stalking, not taking no for an answer.

Men raped women, got them pregnant, trapped them into marriage. Rape in marriage has only been illegal since 1991 in England. Many women were raped, beaten, killed. It's pretty recent that police have taken domestic violence at all seriously- and women still get killed.

Some women were forced into marriages for the sake of dowries, country alliances and so on - nothing to do with what they may have wanted themselves, didn't matter if they liked the man or not.

And there are still lovely, caring men out there. The media have changed - how we meet people, contact them, but that's tools, not results. Some men are good at appearing to be wonderful men until they're married and with children, but for some it's difficult to tell the difference until it's too late.

We've never had a world full of wonderful men, and we still don't. Neither have they been universally bad - and they still aren't.

The worst example was Eric Gill. Just an absolutely evil person but revered in some quarters

This is so simplistic. As a feminist do you not understand the impact of economics, upbringing, social mores, abusive tactics, illness both mental and physical, the courts? YOU have been able to make choices and have had good fortune with a man. Your experience is far from universal.

It's useless to imagine that one life experience is the blueprint for all, in the presence of so many confounding factors. Just a cursory read of a few threads should surely make you realise that?

That's why I said "NOT ALL". Clearly, some women get entrenched before realising the enormity of their situation with a real abuser. But lots of women put up with just general low-level shit, not helping with the children, not doing their fair share of housework, doing a hobby that takes them out of family time. For years and years and then complain they are miserable. OBVIOUSLY I wasn't talking about truly abused women.

My sons don't write letters or build palaces. But they embrace their family life and put effort into their relationships. They show their love by always being there, with their wife/partner and kids, and with little tokens of affection. They listen, support, and adore their partners. And it's reciprocated.
I wouldn't let my DILs accept anything less. Or my sons.
I'm very proud of how they conduct their relationships.

What qualifies as being "truly abused".

Everything you listed is a type of abuse.

Anyway you said they'd realise they had to up their game if they want a woman in their life".

Men like that don't "up their game". They just keep trying til they get a woman who'll put up with it, or they change their tactics (or they refine their tactics). They don't change.

Maybe the question should ask why women accept such crap behaviour.

Yes, I absolutely DO understand all those things, it's easy for me to say "trust me", (but hey, I guess I'm saying it), but trust me, my life, until I was about 28 was about as shit as it comes. Economics, upbringing, certainly abuse and mental health issues all took their toll. I had a very poor role model in my mother and then, after a boyfriend attempted to strangle me I decided, erm, no, no more. I'm not going to blame my sexual abuse, my crappy, mysoginistic, verbally abusive father, my useless mother, my shitty boyfriend or anything for why I have accepted shit so far. Now it's up to me to decide what is acceptable.

I am not saying my life is a blueprint for all, I'm not that naive, not everyone is strong enough to do this, but we, as women, perhaps mothers, need to educate ourselves, our daughters, our sisters and our friends that there is MORE to life and there is help (and with access to the internet, there ARE options, there IS help). Surely you have also seen threads on here where women have drawn strength and made a new, good life for themselves, with help from the amazing women on here and MN is just one website.... No, my life is not the blueprint, of course it isn't, but it IS a single testament that if women take it upon themselves to not accept crap, then we CAN change our fortunes. It takes guts, it takes fortitude, but it CAN be done!