Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

Nobody did. It's always been about credibly low. That's why the exceptions you talk about are exceptions. And remember the sonnet writers were also sometimes shits too.
As my dd once said "Most love songs are men saying "I'm an arsehole who treats women like dirt and I'm not going to change- but here's a song." "

but not much has changed when it comes to the treatment of women

That totally contradicts the premise of your op.

One guy who wrote me love letters/poems/dropped everything to spend time with me/told me how I was his everything etc turned out to be a covert narc and a pathological liar. A very nasty piece of work. Another similar guy (left poems and love letters in my coat pocket at work every day and travelled long distances to see me) ended up stalking me and smashing all the windows on my car.

The one who took it slowly in the beginning, played a bit “hard to get” if you like, wouldn’t necessarily inconvenience himself to meet up with me and compliments me sure but doesn’t overdo it has ended up being the one I married. 20 years later he does the odd romantic thing but he’s not OTT. He’s very level headed though and works very hard to pay the bills enabling me to be a sahm - something he is appreciative of and doesn’t put me down for.

Heavy romance and declarations of love in the beginning is often actually lovebombing and should be a red flag.
The man is more in love with the idea of being in love than actually valuing you as an individual and it’s a sign that they will always be chasing that giddy feeling and quickly move on to the next!

Oh and dh did buy a boat and named it after me which is pretty romantic. I’d rather see romance as something that happens over time and carries on throughout the relationship rather than an intense start designed to woo you which then sputters and dies quickly. No one can keep up that level of intensity.

I do agree that the internet has made hookups easy and certain men don’t feel they have to try as much - but I don’t believe that most men are happy with that, they generally want “the one” and a family just like many women do.

This.

X100

Men. They invented the bar, and lowered it. Not sure it can go any lower but I'm sure it can

This is an unusual thread for MN.

Feels like the writer is an incel - even if it is of the female variety.

Such idealisation and ignorance and simplistic thinking.

As soon as realistic robots you can have sex with are developed, I doubt that many men will be having relationships with real women.

I blame this problem on many issues. It has nothing to do with the contraceptive pill.

The biggest issue, is the availability of porn. Most men watch it and if they watch enough of it, they digest it and act out. They think that this is what women want but we don't really which is the issue.

The second, is that dating sites have provided a place where the undatables can basically have opportunities to date. Many years ago, these men would get a reputation and come with a warning or they would end up marrying a naive 18 year old who would then endure many years of physical / mental abuse.

Same here: I had a boyfriend who wrote me sonnets and bought me lovely underwear, and also used to verbally abuse me. I got out early (sadly I recognised the verbal abuse because of my father) so no real harm done, but when I ended it he did a series of things which I won't put on here because they're identifying. Had he lived near me at that point, it wouldn't have been 'no harm done' at all.

The idea that men 'conquered lands for their women' is so preposterous by the way OP, men have conquered lands for resources and manpower, anything else is a fictional spin on (most likely) some form of genocide or theft.

Yes. Or a fledgling writer looking for a pitch, or a man.

The idea that men 'conquered lands for their women' is so preposterous by the way OP, men have conquered lands for resources and manpower, anything else is a fictional spin on (most likely) some form of genocide or theft.

Exactly.

Wasn't it Genghis Khan who was quoted as saying (paraphrasing) there was no greater pleasure in life than conquering a land and fucking all the women they "acquired". That's the opposite of conquering for (on behalf of) a woman.

The op sounds like an incel.

A lot of women ARE getting fed up with it - but not enough. Plus that guy is on his BEST behaviour at the start of things (even being deceitful about who he really is - and by the time you realise who he really is, you're emotionally entrenched).

I think a lot of men would be happy just watching porn for the rest of their lives if they couldn't get a relationship (a lot of them are doing that in relationships already).

The op sounds like an incel.

😕Looking back at the original post, I think you're right. There's no woman who goes to an art gallery and comes away thinking men were better back then because they painted tits nicely.

I think it’s a mix of them having got away with so much for so long and online dating.

For years men have got away with treating women badly for example cheating as women continue to stay so no consequence. I mean we even see it on this very relationship board oh no his cheated what do I do, women even in 2024 allow this disrespect.

Online dating so many women available, but many men don’t even want to go for a simple drink they want to go straight to sex. Or they want naked pictures after a simple Hi. They take a week to send you a message, because they was “busy”. I also think Covid made going for a walk the in thing so they didn’t even have to make any effort apart from that and some are trying to cling on to that.

What I have noticed though is that the tide is turning. Many social media platforms show you Especially the younger generation of women that are not standing for it. They are coming off the dating apps, don’t allow no communication for days on end, accept nothing less than an actual date.

Men haven’t got shitter they are they same as always it’s just women are more aware now and they are not standing for it

I was just going to say the same thing

I assure you I am not an Incel!
But yes, maybe I did come away a little deflated and with rose tinted glasses.

And I was actually taken aback at the Imperial War Museum, looking at the WW1 exhibition and reading the letters soldiers wrote home.

Just deflated with the lack of effort some men are putting into dating that's all.
Would be nice to be treated nicely and to be courted and to be appreciated and have efforts reciprocated

They conquered lands for women! They wrote them beautiful epistles! They were all white knights! They were all respectful and upstanding and faithful and honourable!

But you stupid women have ruined it, wanting rights and having sex.

It's pure incel.

An the art gallery stuff- not tits thank you v much, but the painting technique knowing how hard it was to find and mix pigments, how long a portrait took to paint, and the consistent and perceived commitment to finishing the painting.
😃

So looking at art made you think men as a group used to better?

Do you realise there are men now who wrote poems or love letters? There are artists now.

Some men did these things in the past. Some men do them now.

What proof is there that men, as a group, were better behaved in the past?

Did they behave better when rape inside a marriage was legal? Or when women couldn’t have bank accounts on their own? Or when they believed women shouldn’t vote?

Do you think non of these men who were creating art or writing love letters, were also complete shits? Didn’t cheat? I know 4 families where the grand father turned out to have a second family.

It was more widely accepted that men would have affairs. Women had very limited capacity to divorce and lots of men didn’t treat their wives better and acknowledged that their wives had little choice. Many used the fact that their wives were trapped to treat them badly.

Many men would sleep with women. How do you think so many children were born to unmarried mothers in those horrific homes? Sex outside marriage happened it just wasn’t acknowledged. And in cases where it was rape and abuse, even less women would have reported it than they do now.

Love letters from the past, stand out because it was unusual. Love letters from the war stand out because it’s unusual AND it was such a horrific experience in the trenches.

Internet dating is a whole different beast. There’s many women for them to have contact with and if some back off because of their behaviour, they will others who don’t fall for it.

There’s always been bad men and decent men. The ways this might manifest maybe be different. But the bar has not been lowered. The bar has always been low.

Women.

Women lowered the bar. You only have to read the threads on here to see what women put up with. "Oh, he's always been like that, even before we had kids" (why did you let him continue to be like that?), "Oh, he's never changed a nappy, said it was my job!" (why the baby is HIS child too!), "Oh, it's just easier for me to do it... for the millionth time" (Why? Why? Why??).

No, no, NO!! The very first time they don't do something or treat you like rubbish, no matter how far you are into the relationship, first date, first day after the honeymoon, first day after baby is born, you say NO, this is not acceptable and you repeat. Walk away if they are not 100%. You do not say, no, no, no, yes. Men are not stupid they will learn they can be lazy or just generally rubbish if they push it but neither should you be stupid and just let it happen. You also make damn sure you have your own money and a back up plan before you get pregnant and you make sure you have the safety net of marriage before you have children. Then you aren't trapped and screwed having given up your job to raise children without the safety net of marriage. Maybe it's old fashioned, but so many women on here didn't think marriage was important until the man turned out to be shit and they had little choice but to stay in an awful, abusive relationship because they had no money of their own and trusted that their man would never screw them over.

And before anyone starts a-hollering at me, I don't mean when things unexpectedly go pear-shaped, that's an entirely different situation. I'm talking about the ones who just let things slide for 5, 10, 30 years and then wonder why the husband hasn't bothered with their birthday AGAIN.

Yes, men should just be good guys, but it's up to us as women to say no to the crap ones and to raise our boys with more respect. Maybe then they'd pick up the cues, or at least learn to behave better. And yes, dad's should also be responsible for raising boys the right way, but whilst we can't change what THEY teach and how rubbish THEY are as role models, we can absolutely be responsible for what WE teach and what role modles WE are to our sons AND daughters so the next generation do it better!

Sorry about the rant, but I'm so sad and so cross when I read threads on here about what women are willing to put up with.

TL:DR - The only person that is responsible for my happiness is NOT the man in my life, it's ME and I flat out refuse to accept mediocrity in any partner.

What the fuck @Xenoi24 ?

I did not say ALL MEN WERE KNIGHTS.
I said many men these days are shit at dating and that is evident in my friendship groups, personal experience and on many of the threads on this site

They did that to make money.

Not to honour women.

They painted women because men like looking at attractive women.

(Or they wanted their mother/wife "recorded" as part of their own prestige).

Wtf op.

Your opening post generalised a huge amount about men in the past and men now.

These were men who were in vile conditions waiting to die. Between the bouts of battle they had very little to do other than contemplate their own fate. Full of what ifs and longing for home.

Of course the letters they wrote home were flowery and full of drama and romance. They wanted writing back and facing your own death does that to people.

Online dating is not the same as being in the trenches of world war 2

I feel like many are conflating 'dating' and courting with men in relationships and attitudes towards women in general

I'm not ignorant of the fact that marital rape existed, (and still does in some parts of the world)
Not ignorant of the fact that men abused women and also cheated. Like I said though, reading threads on MN shows these things still happen AND THEY'RE SHIT AT DATING

I'm talking about the courting and dating side of things- the early stages