Who lowered the bar for men?

[datcherygrateful]

My friend and I were talking about how lots of men dating seem to put little effort in, and having just come back from visiting a museum and art gallery, I feel like we've drawn the short end of the stick when it comes to seeing many men and their effort.

She said that's just how men are these days- But I'm a bit baffled

Considering that men found time in the trenches to write a letter to their beloved, that artists would take ages to mix pigments to paint their muses, and some men built palaces for their beloved? Some conquered lands for their love.
Some travelled long distances on horseback in treacherous rain to meet up if only briefly. Books and poems, songs, music compositions all inspired by and made for their love.

Are we expecting too much or not enough these days?

Because it feels like if a man is online and doesn't message or call- that's acceptable by many
If he doesn't confirm plans or plan a date himself thoroughly- acceptable by many
If they don't gift, or romance you- accepted by many

@Itsonlymashadow I agree.

Basically, in the incel-sphere and the Right, absolutely everything that is wrong with society is women's fault.

Centuries ago, it was mainly unmarried wise women (particularly the older ones who saw through bullshit a bit better and had some experience), who were blamed for deaths, illnesses or crop failures. Or it was wives who were simply not subservient enough to their husbands, or young women who were too pretty, too attractive for their own good and who 'led men on'.

Now it's still women's fault again for men's behaviour. We are tasked with mothering all of them, making sure they don't overstep boundaries, managing their behaviour, and if we don't do that, our mistreatment is our 'fault'.

We're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

If we have high standards, society says 'Well you're just too fussy. No wonder you can't find a decent man. You're just too much effort. Too demanding. Too much hassle'.

However, when women lower those standards 'Well it's your fault really isn't it? Why did you do put up with 'xyz'??'

I see blame being put on women for being the one more likely to initiate divorce (because they're more neurotic, according to Jordan Peterson).

He and others like him never pause to think or really examine why women might be doing that. The fact that men will often stay in a relationship (whilst progressively treating their female partner worse & worse because they don't want to be seen as the bad guy for leaving the marriage), is never talked about.

Men and left with the impression that it's all some part of calculated plan to live off their money, rather than seeing it as millions of women leaving abusive, boundary-pushing, unfaithful, lazy, sexist, smug, arrogant, bad-tempered men, something which would have only been a dream to their female ancestors.

You're suffering from confirmation bias.

You saw the letters written home from the front lines, yes. But you didn't see all the evidence of men who couldn't be arsed to write home, because it's hard to preserve something that doesn't exist.

Same with the paintings. You really think the majority of men back then were painting pictures or their partners.

200 years from now, what's likely to be preserved from today? Dave the coders WhatsApps with his girlfriend, about what's for tea tonight? Or maybe it'll be recorded for posterity that Gary the plumber never used to bother replying to his wife. More likely it'll be Phil the famous author, who had a talent with words that make even the most inane email with his wife read like the best romantic fiction. Or Clive the virtual reality artist, who created his wife a VR beach house when she was too terminally ill to go on holiday any more.

I'd like to think that me and DP have a love affair for the ages, but given that we both have the creative talents of a monkey flinging shit, our WhatsApp conversations featuring minion memes, queries about when Ill be home for the pub or do I need to pick up a loaf of bread are unlikely to be recorded by future historians.

My mate Steve takes absolutely beautiful photos, many of them of his wife. They could be worthy of display in 200 years and people might think "Oh they must have loved each other". But truth is he's been cheating on her for 3 years and now they're getting a divorce.

You're seeing snapshots of the past, and generally the most favourable ones.

It is fine to do that, if you want, both men and women, when single.
But if there comes a point where you want commitment, marriage etc you need to be more savvy though. Both men and women want the best that they can get. What we class as best varies. I have been married forever but as a woman don’t particularly want a previously promiscuous man actually, it it would be best he didn’t say too much about it, as I would be put off. Women should hold boundaries, and keep men on a short leash once committed. Some of the things I read that young women are being put through are astonishing

Totally agree that men take out their issues and it often is blamed on women, but that’s why women need to be independent first and foremost, so that they have choices and keep safe.

Women should hold boundaries, and keep men on a short leash once committed.

Women should ah e boundaries.

they absolutely shouldn’t be keeping anyone on a short leash. Jesus if you have to keep someone on a short leash you shouldn’t be with them at all.

Totally agree. Boundaries are essential but if you need to keep him on a tight leash then he’s not the one.

What like the cool girls that allow stuff…it’s a metaphorical leash, but they know where they stand. Trust but verify. Example dh could be invited to a dozen stag events in Prague, doubt it would be his thing anyway but he wouldn’t dream if accepting, as he wouldn’t be allowed to go…

Lots of man-hating on this thread without people realising it goes both ways.

Women are no better! As one MN poster put it, the four 6s... six figures, six pack, six foot, and 6 inches!

2% of men earn over £100k
10% have six pack (generous guess!)
15% are over six foot
15% have over six inches

That means that 1/20,000 men tick that box in the UK!

70-80% of women leave the man
70-80% of women are overweight
~50% are competent in the kitchen (UK, yougov)
1/4 marriages are sexless
(Mix of US/UK figures)

That means that 1/50 women would actually tick the box for men.

...and we haven't even got into personality compatibility, plus many of these people are already married!

Everyone is going after the unicorns! And these are just the 'basic' requirements for either sex.

If a man in the distant past wanted romance and a relationship, he HAD to do the chasing. Societal expectations meant than women could not make the first move, could not give too much encouragement. Men had the power to ask, women only to refuse. The grand gestures were part of the chase and the wooing, and the aim on both sides was ultimately marriage. (One landowner local to me sent his prospective bride a gift of 2 pineapples - in 1782, this meant that not only was he rich, but rich enough to have a pinery and the staff to grow the pineapples. She was impressed enough to marry him.)
I'm not sure why we lowered our expectations so much in more recent times. Perhaps it's the internet - a quick text instead of a well thought out and beautifully written letter, a meme or picture forwarded instead of a personally drawn sketch. It encourages brevity to the point of carelessness. I suppose I'm more concerned that women are prepared to settle for less than they should be.

Lots of man-hating on this thread without people realising it goes both ways

I don't think that is factually possible @C1N1C due to the amount of men who come on Mumsnet and remind us feminist harridans that IT'S NOT ALL MEN THO and WOMEN ARE BAD TOO and WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ????

Like fucking duh.

Don't you worry. Men are just fine. They have plenty of men and women fighting their corner at every available opportunity.

*Women are no better! As one MN poster put it, the four 6s... six figures, six pack, six foot, and 6 inches!

2% of men earn over £100k
10% have six pack (generous guess!)
15% are over six foot
15% have over six inches*

That means that 1/20,000 men tick that box in the UK!*

Literally no woman I've ever known has gone for that.

When is this bloke ever going to stop posting on this forum.

I don't know any woman who demands all the 6s. It's a dating app phenomenon, but it's dating apps that are destroying dating.

I don't actually know any men who:
Have a 6 pack (even the gym bunnies).
Earn over 100k.

I don't know many men over 6ft, which is a shame when I'm 5'10.
I don't measure men's willie's. Not even dh's.

My requirements back in the day (early 20s)were:
Taller than me.
Good looking.
Not fat.
Working.
No kids.
Into same/ similar music.
Good in bed.
Not a heavy drinker.
Not a twat.

Really not that hard to achieve.

In return I offered:
Youth.
Wit.
Humour.
Good earning capacity.
Ability to work well as a team.
Good in bed.

Well if the 4 6’s is the bar we’re all setting apparently then maybe my bad too low

I’m happy to meet a man who isn’t porn obsessed, can communicate in actual sentences, isn’t juggling several women at same time, actually wants to go on dates, is actually single, isn’t bitter about his ex and isn’t a sex pest misogynist. Unfortunately at 50+ even men who fit that criteria are about as rare as a rainbow unicorn.

@coldcallerbaiter well, I'm more of a cat person...I cannot imagine telling an adult they are not allowed to go somewhere. What am I going to do? Tie them to a radiator?

Poems, monuments, wars fought for love are remembered and told all these years later because they were unusual and exceptional.

The bar has always been low. Today, women are less willing to put up with it. Or at least, some women.

modern technology and more availability of people means you can spend less time on one person etc

The "cool girls" insult is so hackneyed. If you need to keep your partner on a leash and feel you have any right to "allow" them to do things or not, metaphorical or not, you're the problem.

It's a question of treating someone as you want to be treated. If a man said he needed to keep me on a leash and wouldn't allow me to go on holiday with my friends, I'd run a mile and warn everyone I knew about him.

Because over the generations they see women out up with it because we have been programmed to believe being chosen by a man is the ultimate prize in society.

No matter how shit the man, it's better to say Mrs.

I look back and wonder why I wanted one so badly given the one I have.

I felt continually pressured. Women's magazines back in the day, totally full of shite. Written by women too,

Many of us have totally been sold a huge lie!

Another misogynistic insult?

Very original. Boundaries are about the person setting them. Not about controlling someone else’s behaviour or keeping someone ‘on a short leash’. Of course it’s metaphorical. No one is talking about a physical leash and no one suggested that we were talking about a physical one.

Thats how abusers often get away with controlling behaviour. You can say ‘I don’t want to be married to someone who goes away on stag parties to Prague’ . Your husband then makes a decision based on that knowledge. He made a decision when he married you, because boundaries are your responsibility to communicate, so I assume you did.

Your husband makes decisions, including whether to marry you, based on your boundaries and his own boundaries. In a healthy relationship you respect eachother boundaries because it works for you both and out of respect. Not because one gets to dictate what is or isn’t allowed.

Thats completely different to saying ‘I won’t allow my husband’, that’s controlling.

If I got wind dp ever thought he got to decide what I was and wasn’t ’allowed to do’ he would be out of the door. It’s controlling. That doesn’t make me a cool girl. It makes me someone who won’t be controlled and also doesn’t control other people. I don’t want a partner who behaves like a decent man because I dictate his actions. I want someone who is a decent man.

@GogAndMagog most people would like to be in love and find that amazing connection with someone. Unfortunately sometimes love turns out to be like a expensive designer bag - best we can do is a knock off and we're told to be grateful for it

I was just 27 when I was told that leaving my ex may mean I will never find another man who would want me (I'm no supermodel, but I'm not that ugly) 😂

I never lowered my bar.

It’s funny that because I don’t know any men or any women in relationships with men who are over 6ft, have a 6 pack, earn over 6 figures. Obviously I have no idea about the 6 inches. But many of them have happy relationships. I can assure you that dick size isn’t something women are hyper focussed on. They do however expect someone to put some effort in with sex and you don’t need more 6 inches to do that.

I don’t know one women who has that as a list like that. Especially the 6 pack. Non of my daughter’s friends who are in their 20s have a list like that either.

That list might hold weight for a small amount of women. However, it is (incidentally) the list that incels insist most women have. And that’s the basis of their hatred of women. But it’s not actually true.

Do men really not want to date women that aren’t over weight at all? Is that really on all men’s lists?

Why would women be measured by competency in the kitchen? Would love you to link the yougov example.

Fwiw, my dp is over 6ft, doesn’t earn over 100k (I do though’ and doesn’t have a 6 pack.

@Itsonlymashadow
Please don't take offense at my example, I was simply referencing a lady on MN (probably about six months ago now?) who stated those as her requirements... I simply found it amusing (as it would appear, everyone else did too!) and in no way representative of 'women' as a whole :). She would not budge, those were her standards, and they should be celebrated!

It's difficult to compare sexes and their requirements with non-quantifiable metrics... weight, age, income... vs. humour, charm, charisma. It's harsh, but just as (I'd imagine) women would prefer athletic over beer belly, men (purportedly) prefer skinny with boobs/bum over 'less skinny'.

The point of my post was really the Newton's law approach. It's easy to say 'men' in this instance do not tick the boxes, but then you have to question whether 'women' do either? Male standards dropping beget female standards dropping, which beget male standards dropping...

@Xenoi24
The title of this thread said that the bar had lowered for men, and (yes, as a man) I absolutely agree. Men these days are less likely to provide, less likely to marry, less likely to stay in shape (all quantifiable, verifiable metrics), probably the majority of things that you (may) look for in a man, but the same is true for women. If men do not provide what women look for, then what incentive is there for women to reciprocate.

When you ask a woman what she's looking for in a man, to quote @Squidlette above (sorry, this may have changed since your 20s!): Taller, Good looking, Not fat, Working, No kids, Into same/ similar music, Good in bed, Not a heavy drinker, Not a twat... it's not a small list. That list is considered 'acceptable', this woman is right to have standards. But when you ask a woman what she 'provides' in return for that list, it's often met with "he gets me!". Imagine a man saying that, or indeed, the opposite 'male' list: shorter, slim, housewife, virgin, non-argumentative... that would be considered offensive. Now imagine if that were actually your average man's requirement in a woman. How many UK women would actually tick that box?

Truth be told, I think we're going through a transition period. For centuries it has been man provides, woman looks after. Only within the last (say) 50 years or so has this dynamic (significantly?) changed. Paradoxically, due to 'remnants' of old expectations/stereotypes, I think this is now wreaking havoc with relationships. 'Dominant' traits in men are still desired, but paradoxically are considered toxic (strength, ambition, decisiveness, primary earner...), whereas 'submissive' traits in women that many men (may) still desire (smaller, agreeable, 'housewifey'...) are seen equally as negatively.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Plenty of men would still be utter shits even if women "didn't put up with them." We all know perpetually single guys who are awful and hate women