March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Well my mother has done what shes clearly set out to do since we were kids, now neither of my siblings talk to me because when asked whats going on over here and i filled her in i was told shes going to block 'my rants' and she only wants to know whats happening with me and my son. Now my 'rants' are actually updates on mine and my sons life which revolves around the shite my mother is causing but we are of course not allowed to talk about it so shes now blocked me. It is just never ending and if anyone knew me they would know my life is so drama free and peaceful but that woman will stop at nothing.

Again I am sorry I am too drained to be of support to others. I feel every bit if strength I get is taken away when she starts again and its just constant at this point. I feel like my heart is just breaking in half. I want a peaceful life, I want to run my home, parent my son, walk my dog, work eat and get paid. I dont want this other drama. I just at this point dont even remember what my eyes look like without tears in them. I know it sounds like a poor me post but I do actually feel so sad for myself at the moment. Nothing I do is right. Never has been never will be and as a consequence my son has no contact with his family all because of one woman. I cannot believe I came from her.

@Genuineweddingone
I'm so sorry you're feeling so low. I have no advice but want to send love and solidarity to you. You and your son do not deserve this treatment. It's cruel.

She fully blames me for the situation she's in. Because I kicked her out when I couldn't cope with her behaviour anymore.
She still thinks I need to make up for what I've done, she even told me she had a dream that I said sorry.
I'm feeling so low about it all, but whenever I have helped any of my family it has been thrown back in my face through disrespect & badmouthing. The latter is also apparently all in my head. When I voiced my concerns last time about feeling walked over & that I did so much for them I was told 'but we are your family'.

They are my family yes, but they can be so fucking unbelievably nasty & see nothing wrong in it.

@JellyWellyBoots I know it's difficult, but you need to tune them all out, especially your sister. Keep reminding yourself about the way she failed to help you when you were on your knees, looking after your dad. And how she behaved at his funeral.
You don't need this negativity.

I'd just block her, personally, and get on with sorting out the estate.

Hope you don't mind me jumping on this thread. I just need to vent.

I'm currently on the last leg of a long journey to visit my parents, and quietly seething with anger after my last visit when my father said something extremely hurtful - he calmly told me he could've done something to positively affect the entire course of my adult life, but he chose not to because of some perceived character flaw of mine that is not even logically real.

I'm quite sure he's a covert narcissist and is not going to change now. I don't even want to talk to him and have him gaslight me or straight up lie or even give a meaningless apology, since he just finds a different way to insult and invalidate me after I point out each iteration of his awful behaviour. He used to goad me into arguments then belittle and insult me, but I stopped rising to that. He would slag me off in comparison to my sibling to new people, until I pointed that out and so far he's stopped that too. Since then he's started making quietly cruel remarks about me, to me, out of the blue, when we're alone. So this kind of thing has been going on my whole life. I'm completely sick of it and truly disgusted by his behaviour.

Idk what to do about this anger I'm feeling now. It's a kind of righteous anger I've not had before. I'm not feeling upset, or vulnerable, like usual, just really angry. How dare he treat me like that! My mother has been controlled by him for years, and she supports how I feel thank god but there's nothing she can do about it either. I won't stop seeing her but can't see her without seeing him, he has always made sure of that.

I don't know if I can pretend enough today that I'm fine, or if I'm just going to be obviously not happy with him and end up saying something. Maybe my mum has already told him how I feel, I'm not sure.

I just want him to be nice to me, or say nothing at all if he can't do that. Is that really too much to ask?!

JellyWellyBoots just because you share parents, doesn't make everything your responsibility. DO NOT give your sister money. It won't be a loan because you will never get it back. DO NOT let her move in. She may be your little sister, but she's an adult. By 'helping' her, you are not allowing her to take responsibility for her actions. She needs to learn there are consequences. My brother never has and relied on our parents to get him out of financial trouble all his life. He's still at it and he's 62. I would recommend you mute your sister or block her til you deal with the death of your dad. And do the same to any other flying monkey.

Thank you and I know so many people are going through worse but it is just relentless at the moment. And on top of feeling isolated and hurt I am spending my days confused. I know I will never ever understand why another human who do these things but it does go around in your mind and at the weekend myself and stepsiblings were talking now about the funeral. Stepdads mainly but how awkward has she made it for everyone? And there is no logical explanation and I know we all sit back at some point and try and understand it and then get further confused but its just beyond my thought process at this point. Im no saint believe me but I would never set out to hurt someone but least of all my own child. We bring them into the world to love and protect them and then there are these vile people out there that just want to destruct that. Why bother having kids if you are just going to do this?

Sorry I am waffling on now I know but it is senseless to me.

@JellyWellyBoots just read a brief bit of your post as I am dealing with my sister right now too and I feel your pain and confusion but sadly I am realising too no matter what we do, we could give them a body part and still be wrong. It is horrible being the scapegoat. I do feel for you.

@JellyWellyBoots I would tell your sister to fuck off, grow up, stop being a ponce and learn to manage her own life and financial responsibilities.
You sister is using you, you know it, stop accepting it, it really is that simple. Xx
@Genuineweddingone your son is not losing his family, you are saving him from a lifetime of bollocks, you don't want him in 30 years time feeling like you do now. You can not rationalize the behavior of narcs xx
@BroadshoulderedB the anger fades once you remove yourself from the situation. Your mother is not your friend she is a flying monkey, she is allowing dad to treat you badly, by pretending to care, she is keeping you locked in the drama cycle [triangulation] xx

@binkie163 I understand that it's true, I'm still in the situation because I don't want to cut my mother off at all, not in the slightest. But what is the alternative? Lose both my parents? My mother is my strongest emotional support and I love spending time with her. Seems like we would both be losing out if I went NC.

Your dad will not change, your mum will continue to support his behavior. As @AttilaTheMeerkat tells us, enablers/spouses will always enable the narc.
Your only solution is to put up with it or walk away, arguing with your parents is pointless.
Your mum won't visit you away from him, why is that? Can she not see how hurt you are?

Yeah I'm not arguing with anyone about it. No point. My mum and dad live together quite far from me, and are older now. They have never actually visited me, even when I lived closer, I always visit them. My mum used to have her own car but my dad convinced her to sell it, and she is nervous about driving the car they still have. I think my dad makes a fuss so much if I try to just go out with my mum that she feels bad doing that. However my mum and I have made plans to go out just us tomorrow, and we're having to keep it secret for now because we both know there's a big risk he'll find a way to stop us.

From the outside, I can see people here going what I've gone through so often myself: the regret and dismay that their FOO are being so horrid and inhuman, the incomprehension about what they're getting out of it. The disbelief that they're doing this to someone they're supposed to love. And amazement that they can live with themselves.

I think this is something that all of us have to go through and grieve - the normal, loving family we should have had. It's painful while it happens - but there is a lot of relief and freedom and a lifting of the weight when you come to the conclusion: 'Well, that's who they are. They won't change.'

I love the Al Wilson song 'The Snake', which is an amazing song in itself, but also brings home the lesson that, it doesn't matter what you do for people like that, their innate nastiness will come out, so don't waste your time or peace of mind expecting anything else. 'You knew darn well I was a snake...'. 🐍

@BroadshoulderedB you mum should not feel bad seeing you alone, you are clearly your father's whipping boy. It's good you are seeing her alone tomorrow ❤️ You are both adults you don't need your dad's permission to go out! That is called coercive control. Normal mothers think nothing of popping out shopping or for coffee with their daughters without the need for permission or explanation. He can make all the fuss he wants.

Thanks. Yeah I know it's coercive control, I've told my mum about this but she's never felt she's in a position to leave. The psychological manipulation runs deep after all these years. I know it's normal to go out just mother and daughter but my family is not normal. I'm the scapegoat of the family who has been pointing all this stuff out in the past. It's partly why I am the scapegoat, I'm sure.

My dad has quite a lot of health problems so I suspect if we tell him about going out tomorrow he'll suddenly feel ill or something. I cba with that drama so it's just easier not to say anything in advance.

BroadshoulderedB

And if that scenario happens your mother may well decide to stay at home with him. In a straight fight she has and will continue to choose him over you.
She had a choice too when it came to you and she has completely failed to date to at all protect you from the excesses of her H's behaviour (she has been a bystander).

I hope you two can and do go out as a mother and daughter tomorrow but it would not surprise me if it did not happen.

She may well decide to never actually leave him. She may well not want to do so. She on some level gets what she wants out of the relationship she has with him. She has also enabled him and this wholly dysfunctional situation in your family of origin to continue.

Do you know anything at all about your mother's childhood; that often gives clues.

Ultimately you will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with both your parents here rather than the one you actually got.

Sadly your mother is another woman who has put her man and her relationship with her man ahead of anything else including you as her daughter.

Feeling for everyone struggling with pressures of family gatherings this weekend and checking in for the new thread.

@BroadshoulderedB sorry to hear your mum struggles so much to see you without your dad. I hope you manage to go out.

Nearing 2 months of NC with my mum. Came home today and found Easter gifts for my child and car seat in my kitchen - she'd used her key to get into my house while we were out. Later found her key posted through the front letterbox so at least that is returned. So uncomfortable with her having been here while I was out - feel really violated. I have no idea what to do about the Easter gifts. Even if we give them to my child I don't want to tell her they are from my mum. I'm not contacting her to thank her but equally feel that silence is allowing this situation? No letter inside or anything for me or my husband just a note saying 'with lots and lots of love to DC from GM'.

A friend pointed out that she could have made a copy of the key. Bit worried now - it's a key that isn't easy to copy as I've tried to get spares cut before but she's had two months to find someone to do the job so I don't know what to make of the whole thing.

1. Put gifts in bin
2. Get new locks fitted

^ I know that's an expense but you'll never feel secure until you do Xxx

Just finished the book the body keeps the score - and feeling a bit churned up - it resonated in certain places.

Acknowledge feelings, give them names, accept them etc mindfulness etc and I’ve had three years of counselling and don’t think I can go any further with it.

The inner child wants proper parents and I need to comfort her but I’m a bit scared of splitting myself into an inner child to comfort etc at times I have been very dissociated with myself and been looking in. I just want to pain to stop. I just want to feel loved.

Hello everyone, I have posted on the Statley Homes thread in the past a few times under different names, can't remember what they were.
Basically have always had a difficult relationship with my mother. I'm now in my 50s, she's 70s.
She was controlled by her own mother, had a bad marriage to my father who died a few years ago. Although now trying to convince everyone and herself they didn't.
A sibling has now cut all contact with us, wont let us see their children, it's driving her mad and I'm fed up being her emotional punchbag.
She would always start arguments with my father and now does it with me. I always react, like today as I'm not going to be spoken to like that, she is convinced I'm keeping secrets about this sibling from her, this sibling doesn't speak to me either.
I shouldn't react to her, her house is a tip, I try to help but there's no point. I probably was quite nasty to her today but she was being horrible to me. She doesn't speak to other siblings like she does to me as she knows she wouldn't get away it, I'm the usual people pleaser, low in confidence and always feel like a child again.
My DH tells me not to bother with her when I try to do things to help her, it's not fair on my DC either as it really upsets me.
She has health issues, think she has always had some mental health issues. I honestly worry something serious is going to happen to her. Its the FOG as well that I've heard about on here so much.
I'm angry at this sibling too as I feel they are causing ME more stress.
Sorry for the rant, even other family members have no idea what she's like. Sending everyone best wishes and peace.

This, all day long. Stop concerning yourself with what she thinks or feels. It's literally nothing to do with you, those are her thoughts and feelings for her to experience, they're not problems for you to fix. She's entitled to be who she is, even if she's unreasonable! You're entitled to choose not to be around the drama, not to listen to her, not to read messages that make you feel like shit and to block her to achieve all this, Jelly.

Your sibling isn't the one causing you stress let's hope. Lay the blame where it belongs, at your mother's feet. She's the one giving you grief. All your sibling is doing is protecting themselves and their DC. That's a healthy thing. You could do the same and protect yourself, protect your family from the drama spilling over into their lives in the form of your upset. I understand why you don't and I hope one day you'll be able to break free. It's not your sibling's fault you choose to tolerate your mother's nastiness though. You don't live with your mother by the sounds of it, so I'm glad you can physically get away from her at least.

IAAP I'm sorry you're hurting. [fails to find a hug emoji, sorry]

You could give the Easter gifts to the food bank alcoholic mum. I often give my parent's gifts to charity shop and feel happier that someone else can benefit from the items.

Broad shoulders for the anger write a letter then burn it.

Hello all, quick one before escaping for a weekend away. First weekend away for Mr Monkey since December last year as we became prisoners by his late mother’s illness. That December illness came with the immortal words screamed by The Hag in her hospital ward at me: “she’s not my family. She’s NOT my family. She doesn’t understand what it’s like as she’s never given birth.” And repeated to the nurse. That was definitely it for me with the witch.

anyway, I digress…

Really good Desert Island Discs with Dr Alice Roberts where she talks about the estrangement from her family. It’s so rarely talked about in public, is it?

What I found interesting was the breakdown came after her mother spoke to a national newspaper about Alice’s attitude to religion. Whatever our views are on faith (humanist with a Catholic partner here!), it’s so interesting that a different point of view is taken as an attack by parents like hers.

Very interesting listen.

Some people should never become parents. They are so utterly shit at it. My opinion is that it never occurs to these sorts that a baby is actually a whole human being who will grow up and live an actual life. What kind of life will that be with a parent like you? (Meaning them of course)

I still see it happening everywhere with people who have no business having children.

I've grown into something of a nihilist and I think having a child is a deeply selfish act unless you're prepared to do whatever it takes to support them throughout their lives and be a good parent.

None of us owes our parents anything. Or any of our other family members for that matter. We didn't ask to be born into that FOO. It was forced upon us by other people's choices and whatever stroke of fate played a part.

alcoholicmum243

Indeed bin (or give items to foodbank) and get the locks changed as user8800 advises. Do not acknowledge those in any way, shape or form. If you reply its a response and a response to such disordered of thinking people is the reward because they know they have you then.