March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@AnnaSewell we are all difficult here ✊

Yes, it's amazing how we're all "difficult", according to our toxic relatives.

JellyWelly - "that doesn't work for me", repeat every time, until one of you dies. Response to being asked why - "it's not convenient", repeat over and over as much as necessary. If you don't give information, people can't argue why you're supposedly wrong.

Well done @AnnaSewell - I had that exact moment too when I walked out of my (now dead) mother's house 6 years ago. Never went back. Never spoke to any of my Family Of Origin again.

I never planned to go NC, I just did it.

I have a Highly Toxic Sister enabled by her Arsehole Husband. The whole FOO dynamic was (and remains) a shit-show.

Freeing ourselves from the chains of misplaced guilt and obligation is utterly liberating.

@JellyWellyBoots - DO NOT ENGAGE. IT'S A TRAP.

If your sister is anything like mine, you'd be well advised to stick to your guns and stay away. They're very good at dishing it out but the minute we set a boundary or call out their shit, they can't handle it. It's like taking a favourite toy away from a baby. They want the toy back. The toy is you.

It's only with the benefit of years of hindsight that I can see the regular pattern of my sister's toxic behaviour. I must have been mad to put up with all that shit for so long.

Hi all, my first post here although long time lurker.

I’m so fed up and upset I just don’t know what to do anymore.
I have always had difficulties with my mum but will explain the most recent or I’ll be here all day.
I split up with my ex partner 6 weeks ago and needed some support off her with my two boys- 13 + 10. She’s the first to tell us (I have 4 siblings) to divorce/separate if we’re having troubles and that she would be there but then never is. She never says yes or no but skirts round an answer so in the end you don’t ask her. She knew I was on my own and feeling extremely low but went looking at houses with my brother. I spoke up about it in a call last night and she said ‘where were your sisters? Why does it have to me be?’ I said my sister was out, her response ‘so it’s ok for your sister to go out but I can’t and you only want me if she’s not there’.
She has never helped me much at all with my children- had my youngest once overnight but said last night it always comes up on Facebook that she had my eldest overnight when he was younger- it was when my youngest was born at 24 weeks and in hospital for 4 months and it was about 3 nights!
She then called me a bully saying I’m always nasty to her and take out my anger on her- I was sobbing at this point and she just sat there (video call) with a straight face and told me to just calm down- her CBT has told her she needs to be more assertive.
She then brings up my dad who we don’t see and moans that we don’t go on at him and he’s not father of the year etc etc. My dad isn’t in our lives and they divorced over 15 years ago but she always brings up how she was a victim etc.
Due to changes in my job I’m short on money but she moaned to another sister that I didn’t get her a Mother’s Day gift. Also going on that she had money troubles etc when she was a single parent so it’s tough.
There’s so much more and I don’t think I’ve even covered this properly it just sounds silly but wanted to write something somewhere.

@WiseDreamer That's so sad for you. My "mother" never helped me with anything except piling on criticism, so I understand how lonely and sad it can be - it's really hurtful to think not only is she not helping, but she's criticising you to others when you are going through a particularly difficult time.

I think she's probably shown she is never going to be supportive, she will always disappoint you, and it might be better for your mental health to try to accept you don't have the mother you deserved to have. Narcissistic people seem to love pretending that they would drop everything to help you, but then when actually called into action there's a big problem that means they can't (such as an appointment at the hairdresser). So you need to go elsewhere for the help you need. I hope you have some trusted friends, you don't say how your relationship with your sisters is, but when being brought up by a mother like yours, it often results in general dysfunction and manipulation by other members of the family.

Thank you for your reply. It’s all very sad but true what you say.
I have 3 sisters and a brother (I’m the eldest). One of my sisters is my rock atm, doing everything she can for me. But my mum did go and see her yesterday mentioning ‘how difficult it must be for her to help me with my boys (more so youngest) with her boys and job etc’ trying to get a response but not willing to help.
However, not talking to my youngest sister because of my mum actually. We were due to pay our deposit on my mum’s birthday holiday for next year on Monday (I arranged it- money coming out of my account). However I spoke to my mum saying I couldn’t quite afford to pay it atm so she said she’d pay all hers off so that would cover my deposit without having to lend any money. However she then tells my youngest sister what she’s doing and she also is struggling for money after buying a car and then refuses to pay hers too. As the money was out of my account I ended up paying mine and now short of money for my bills. Mum said ‘she can tell who she wants’ and hasn’t done anything wrong.

Wise I'm sure you know that it's you who needs to be more assertive and you shouldn't have paid for the deposit. Your mum is right in that she can tell who she likes about what she's doing with her own money. It's actually not your mum's fault that your sister then refused to pay, that's on your sister. You should have cancelled the direct debit because one of the parties didn't pay and returned all your mum's money as the holiday wouldn't be going ahead. If your sister did this now, what's to say she won't be difficult when the next payment comes due? This money from your mum was supposed to be a loan so now sister has to pay more next time, I'm betting she won't want to do that and will see your mum's deposit money as a gift to herself. As the money comes from your bank account it's you who will end up paying the shortfall for your sister's non- payment. So I'd extricate yourself now.

What's done is done and this is what I recommend, although it'll cause problems and you'll lose the money you've paid. Going on holiday with them is going to be a shit show anyway though, so I'd cancel. Say that due to the split you can no longer afford to go, full stop. Your deposit payment is your birthday gift to your mother (because it means she'll pay less). Your sisters will have to pay the rest of it to the company when it's due, covering your share too so the holiday can go ahead without you. (The holiday will probably cost the same even though one person has pulled out).

Cancel the direct debit with your bank so that no more money can come out. Telling the company isn't enough, they could ignore you, so tell your bank. Write to the company, a proper old fashioned letter telling them you're withdrawing from the holiday but that the other people are still going. Tell them to cancel the direct debit and ask them to confirm in writing that they have done so and to acknowledge that the holiday is still booked and going ahead without you. Give your sisters contact details for the company and tell them they'll have to organise payment. I'm sure they'll be able to phone up and pay over the phone or online when the next payment is due, or use one of their accounts to set up a direct debit.

There'll be fallout now by doing this, but it's preferable to paying for a holiday you can't afford and won't enjoy due to the behaviour of your family.

My parent did something similar with the "keep your key, you'll always have a home here" after I moved in with my ex. Then when I left him, thinking I could go there for a while until I'd sorted something else out, made it clear I was unwelcome from the moment I stepped through the door. There would have been no problem if they'd said I couldn't come "back home", I'd have begged a sofa from a friend instead while I got sorted. I just didn't dream for one minute that I needed to having been told, repeatedly and for years, that I could always go back and knowing there was definitely an empty and tidy spare bedroom. So I know how that feels, when they promise to help and then don't.

@WiseDreamer
I fully agree with @Schneekugel's post.

There's nothing to be gained from going on this holiday.

@WiseDreamer the whole family dynamic sounds dysfunctional and enmeshed. I agree with @Schneekugel remove yourself from the holiday, not just because of what's happened but there will be months of aggro, drama and falling out over it. Stepping out now will save you in the long run.
Your mum obviously likes drama and triangulation tactics (tittle tattle) your family can not be relied on.

Thank you for your replies. I just feel like it’s all in my head and I’ve gone OTT. Just so fed up. In 6 weeks I’ve separated from my OH if 8 years, this with my mum and was only working agency to work around my boys etc which has gone to next to nothing so practically lost my job. Have got another job but waiting for DBS and references to go through.

You're not being OTT at all Wise. You need to put yourself first here. Your priorities needs to be your DC welfare and your own life circumstances eg finding a job, keeping home clean and tidy, adjusting to your new circumstances as a single parent, grieving the loss of your relationship (even if it was a bad one you'll grieve "what might have been" if he'd been nicer).

Your family can go fuck themselves.

Your mum is nasty.

Your one sister has just forced you, a broke single parent without a steady income, to pay her deposit for a holiday.

Your other sister you could stay in touch with if she's nice, but watch out for her becoming a flying monkey once you've extricated yourself from the toxic family dynamics. Any pressure from her for you to pay anything more towards this holiday, for example, and I'd be going NC with her too.

I agree with everything you say. How do you let go of family? They’re supposed to be your safe space.
This kind of thing has happened so many times with my mum though over the years. I remember being 14/15 and sitting listening every night to her going on about how my dad was abusive and she wasn’t happy with him wanting a divorce- then the next day act like everything was fine. My dad knew she spoke to me about it all so wasn’t nice to me and blamed me. This carried on even through my GCSEs.
I think I need some sort of therapy. I’d hate to pass all this kind of behaviour and emotions on to my children.

@WiseDreamer - sadly, it sounds like your family is pretty far from being a "safe space". Seeking out therapy would definitely be a good idea.

I will read back when I get a moment later in the weekend. My mum as I said has been trying to cause trouble again and I have been trying to fascilitate her husbands family as in my step family as some do not live here and have no access to him etc so I am kind of being a mediator but I have thrown my hat in the ring and said this time I have to walk away. I am exhausted but that said yesterday one of my step siblings and family flew here and I collected them and we all went to visit him in the nursing home. He was in great form but I was so anxious all day in case my mum would turn up. It is a horrible feeling and not one anyone should feel around their parent but this is what she has done. Delighted to say stepdad is doing well and tomorrow I will drop stepfamily back over to him and they will make their way back to the airport after that but it was nice to see him and my son was delighted to see him too. It is a shame she has brought this divide within us but she has and we live with it. I felt sick all day before we got there but once we left and I knew it was all ok I could breathe a sigh and had a lovely evening with everyone.

I will read back in the next few days but honestly the anxiety has made me so tired. One person really can destroy or try to destroy so many people and there is no reason for it. Its really saddening and frustrating I have to say but we will get through it like all of us do eventually.

Thinking of all going through similar and will read back as soon as I can. x

@Genuineweddingone - hang on in there. Those feelings of dread and sickness are just awful. They are also a visceral reaction to the thought of seeing your mother. I experienced this too before I went NC.

Glad your stepdad is doing well. Sending strength and solidarity.

So I decided to bring them back to the home today to see him and the plan was that I then bring them to the airport. Got to the home and mums car was there so I just let them out and went off myself for a bit. She knew I dropped them off cos my ds was with them and she refused to leave cos she wanted I am sure to see me. She apparently fell the other day and told my stepbrother 'i had nobody to call, i have no next of kin' trying to play the victim so obviously goldenchild brother is not in contact now again either and shes looking for sympathy, never sits back and thinks well this is all my fault. The horrible thing is I drove to my office as it was near and spent the time crying. How can one person be so distructive? Its just awful and im so sad that it is like this I really am. She never left and they had to go so I just collected them and did not go in at all myself. I do not want to look at her. My heart hurts though today.

@Genuineweddingone - so sorry you had a shit day. Do these people have any idea just how destructive they are? My toxic sister is the same. Causes utter carnage then plays the victim. It's exhausting.

Unsurprisingly, she is refusing to respect the boundary you have set about not wanting to see or speak to her. This is typical disordered behaviour.

NC is the only way.

Just wanted to say thank you for the support last week when my mum went to hospital. Turns out she was discharged after a couple of days and it's not that bad but my Dad messaged me and said she's not supposed to get emotional with her condition. Seeing as the last time we spoke she screamed at me that I'm not her daughter I don't really know what I'm supposed to do. Dad just sent another message saying they want to see their grandchildren as they 'live for them'. I'm just so tired of it all.

There's a grief thread on the relationships board where people are talking about losing their wonderful mothers. I feel like I've been grieving all my life about my lack of one. I imagine I'll just feel numb when she does go. I should probably go back to therapy but I just used to sit there saying nothing and felt it was a waste of time and money. I've blocked out most of my childhood and can hardly remember anything just the hollow, empty feeling.

Anyway I think you are all wonderful and strong. I'm not sure I deserve to moan on here as my situation wasn't half as bad as most of you but it's comforting to know there are other people out there who get it and are forging on trying to break the cycle.

Hi all cringeing as I read because it all sounds so familiar. I've been on NC with mother for a couple of years but for some reason ended back on low contact. I'm not comfortable but it's not affecting (I don't think) I switch off.
I just find NC/LC the best way in life to keep people from pulling me down. If I let someone in and at some point they pounce which they usually do they are out. Probably sounds lonely or sad but I am my own safe space.

@WiseDreamer I'm sorry this isn't a criticism but that holiday sounds like hell. You need to think whether it's worth spending your much needed money on right now and you have every reason not to afford so good excuse.

Twobigbabies your dad is paving the way for you to put up and shut up. He's acting as your mum's flying monkey. My advice would be to go no contact. If you feel that's a step too far, very low contact. Do not inflict your parents on your children unless you can walk away instantly when they start. Do your children want to see them? How old are they? I hate that guilt trip that your dad used and that would make me withdraw more. You are under no obligation to visit or take the children. If your dad repeats the "mum shouldn't get emotional" then tell him it's best you don't visit then. Best of luck

TwoBigBabies

Some dysfunctional parents use hospital tests as a further way of controlling their target, in this case you. Your dad cannot be relied upon here either because he is also his wife's willing enabler in addition to being her flying monkey. Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all and always need a willing enabler to help them. They do not live for their grandkids either, they just want to use them as a further way of getting back at you by potentially trying to steal their hearts and minds. The truism is that if they are too toxic/difficult for YOU to deal with, its the SAME deal for your kids too.

Have you considered contacting NAPAC; their website may be helpful to you. I have put a link to them here. NAPAC – Supporting Recovery From Childhood Abuse

You will indeed need (and have) grieved for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

I would have nothing more to do with either of them but if this is a step too far currently I would start lowering all levels of interaction with them over a period of time. And indeed as Lady Macbeth writes, "If your dad repeats the "mum shouldn't get emotional" then tell him it's best you don't visit then.

Re your comment, "Anyway I think you are all wonderful and strong. I'm not sure I deserve to moan on here as my situation wasn't half as bad as most of you but it's comforting to know there are other people out there who get it and are forging on trying to break the cycle".

You are also wonderful and strong. You are good enough, so many of us are told otherwise but its not true.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

@Twobigbabies
I recognise that dynamic from my own childhood. My mother's happiness was sacrosanct and my dad did all he could to preserve it. So our feelings were always secondary to hers and if we were ever "difficult " or did anything that made her stressed we were warned " don't upset your mother ".
One time I was in tears on the floor after an incident and I was told that if I could not stop upsetting her then I would be asked to leave ( ie move out ...I was a teenager at the time ).
He worshipped the ground she walked on looking back.
I didn't see this of course and they weren't abusive to the degree many have endured but it has left me insecure and feeling worthless my whole life. If your parents can't love you no.matter what then who can etc etc.
But I agree there is no other way than.LC or NC .
I learnt to.manage it by giving v little away. So no big fall.outs I just live at a distance and share nothing of any importance and it works much better that way.
Don't fall for the emotional blackmail
designed to get you back.in line and keep you there x

Thank you so much for your support it means a lot @AttilaTheMeerkat @flapjackfairy @LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand
I was LC/NC from moving out at 18 until about 8 years ago when parents offered to help with childcare when I went back to work. This is why I haven't been able to go really LC recently. I am worried about the impact on my children as my mum has my son (9) on a pedestal as golden child and labels my daughter (7) as difficult. I guess she reminds her of me or maybe herself!

My father isn't a bad person and I'm not sure he even likes her but he's scared of her tantrums and will do anything to avoid one. I think he was abused as a child and badly bullied at school.