March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Ok so, after a few days of not talking to my sister, I found her waiting for me outside work with flowers & a soft toy for DD.
She asked if I had 2 mins, we cuddled and she said I'm sorry & I love you.
We spoke & I was honest about how she made me feel by ignoring me at the funeral. She did try saying she 'just wanted it over with' but I told her I knew she would say that & that the real reason was I gave the dog away. She admitted this & said she has now realised I couldn't keep the dog just for her.
We went for lunch a couple of days later & it went well.
She has told me she is desperate to move out of her houseshare, the place she wants to move into isn't available for 3 months...
It was literally on the tip of my tounge the other say 'why don't you stay in the spare room'.
I want to be able to help her, she is my sister. But, there is also that huge worry it will all end it tears again. We just can't seem to live together. She tells me what to do, & gets angry if I don't follow her advice. She can be so overpowering. I know she wants me to ask her to move in, but it was so awful last time & she still doesn't think she did anything wrong.

Jeez, Jelly - don't ask her to move in!

jelly three months is no time, she can stay where she is until then. All she needs to do is go out a lot, between that and work and sleep it'll be tolerable. You don't need to help her she's capable of helping herself here. She's also so blatantly only made up with you because she wants to move in, it's fake. Her at the funeral was the real her.

I did wonder why all of a sudden she was being incredibly nice to me after how she was at the funeral, but surely she isn't stupid enough to do something so transparent?
Unless she is genuinely sorry & isn't trying to get back into my head and get me to ask her to move in?
I offered her the room months ago & she said no thanks your place gives me bad memories & it's too isolating.
The thing that made me not ask her was when she told me DD shouldn't be seeing her father (he is an addict & has severe mental health issues). She said 'I told you not to allow him access to her'. I had arranged a supervised visit previously.

Jelly

This was a blatant attempt on your sister’s part to move in. She’s that transparent and self serving. Gifts should come with ribbons, not strings and what she gave you is full of obligation.

Refuse to meet her going forward, it’s not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking. You saw the real her at the funeral service.

@JellyWellyBoots don't do it. She wants to dictate your life but can't get her own together!
I would bet that 3 months turns into 6 and then have to throw her out again.
You don't need the anxiety or aggro of her moving in. Being her sister does not make you responsible for her.
Edited: yes she is that transparent!

@JellyWellyBoots I was just coming on to say 'If someone is that keen to hoover you back, it's entirely for their own interest and not your own.' And so it seems...

Let me join the chorus of voices saying: Don't do it! You are not obliged to do it. It wouldn't be good for you and your daughter. Well done for not letting the invitation get beyond your lips, that was strong in the moment! For the good of your mental health, stick to that now! I'm sure you have the support of all of us here.

And you don't have to give reasons. And you don't have to offer apologies.

🤗

Another saying do not do it. My mother has again done something in recent days and honestly other people are saying to me when I say to them I dont understand what shes doing or why and they all say she is trying to get a reaction out of me to suck me back in. Its so hard. It really is and I have spent so many tears recently but I am being strong this time and I urge you to do the same.

@JellyWellyBoots
I'm glad you had a lunch. Sometimes, a superficial nicey-nicey is the way to play it. However, she behaved really badly to you at the funeral and she got people to do mob bullying which is really grim.

It's all about her, isn't it? The dog, telling you about her houseshare. I wonder why she wants to move out? Playing games with her flat mates? There are always patterns.

Do not take her in. It will affect your mental health. She's going to push and push and push you on it. She's going to play every trick in the book. Expect other people to try and push you. Keep strong. Do not capitulate.

@binkie163 i hear you! I've just been triggered by the Hag’s mobile phone which is downstairs as the witch used it as a weapon of mass destruction and control. I'm binning it.

@Dealingwithabuse i’m so sorry for the abuse your husband suffered.

It's hard for the partner to know what to do. My partner Mr Monkey’s family were VILE - physical, emotional abuse - like you, he told me at the start of our relationship, but over the years more and more came out. He was triggered by his hideous mother, The Hag, but, especially, when the witch stayed in for four ocassions over the last three years. It battered my mental health, but what if did to him.

Is your FIL still alive? Do you have to see him? If so, reduce contact.

Is there stuff related to his family in your house on view? Stick it in a box.

I think listening is so important and sometimes you can't give solutions (not that there are many readily available)

Quality time is important.

Therapy helped Mr Monkey hugely. He had to make the decision to go, though.

Think about your own well-being, too.

Is your husband in his middle age? Tons of it came out when MM hit 50.

Always here to listen, compare notes.

The Hag died in early Feb. MM has conflicting emotions, but, he's doing OK, and the door is closing on his hideous childhood. He's still in therapy.

@Genuineweddingone your mum is queen of the 'ramp up' they will try anything to get a reaction, it's exhausting but they do eventually start to focus on other people to annoy. I had to go NC with family to stop my mum using them to carry her mssgs. You are now in the 'who blinks first' phase.

Hi all. I have lurked these threads for emotional support in the past but never posted. Taking the leap today as feeling very alone.

I have often wavered over whether to describe my mother as abusive. Even though she was prone to angry outbursts, parentified me and we had a completely codependent relationship to an inappropriate degree growing up. I was cripplingly mentally unwell as an adolescent and while this was obviously very difficult for her to deal with alone she has simultaneously held it against me and used it to show off what an amazing mother she is. She has built a whole career off talking about my problems and what an exper she is. Today she had an interview relating to this field and called me to ask for help. We spent the weekend together as she came up to babysit my toddler for the first time while I attended work events. I feel I made a huge mistake becoming reliant on her again. It gave her the leverage over me to criticise me constantly and diminish my accomplishment (work related). She started criticising me on this call for a parenting choice I’d made. She wouldn’t let it go whenever I tried to change the subject or restate my position calmly. I suddenly snapped and said she’d never once asked for my consent to talk about my life, including using my picture; at very public events. And that my achievements as an adult were mine.

She went off on one. She talked about how I was severely mentally ill and obviously that had ruined her life, meaning she couldn’t do a Cambridge PhD which was offered to her. I pointed out it was an open offer which she hadn’t taken up at any point since I left home and was no longer in her care. Over a decade ago. She kept changing the subject to try and derail me. Shouting over me. As well as being severely mentally ill as a child I was apparently simultaneously responsible for all my actions and none of those behaviours were a result of her parenting. She thinks I chose to ruin her life but continues to profit - literally - off those awful years. Which I just want to leave behind.

this combined with the constant attacks on my parenting were just too much. I blocked her on everything and said she would never see her grandchild again. Even now I’m doubting that. I have 3 brothers (importantly of a different father, which she has often emphasised to make me the outcast and talk about how my father who I secretly reconnected with was evil). My brothers in previous times of NC have been textbook flying monkeys. They want to keep relying on her for things like childcare so they put up with her ways. I made the mistake of doing so too. So I don’t even feel triumphant. I feel stupid for having lost my high ground by letting her do me a big favour.

that was an essay, apologies. Just needed to get some of this off my chest. I have no real friends irl other than husband as I was so codependent growing up I never learnt how to socialise properly, and I have ASD. Which she simultaneously mocks but also uses to make herself look great. Never once has she asked me what those years were like for me.

I don’t feel certain of anything at all. Going to do some reading on this topic for resolve.

thanks if you read this far.

@MyLemonHedgehog I'm so sorry you went through that.
You've done the right thing in blocking her. Now you must stick to being NC.

She brings nothing but sorrow and distress to your life.

@MyLemonHedgehog sending you a hug x
You know what you have to do, block her and the brothers, live your life and leave them to squabble.
I personally would not be happy about anyone talking publicly about my past trauma with photographs, that is a real invasion of privacy and breach of trust.
You are not stupid, we all give these abusive parents more chances than they deserve.

MyLemonHedgehog

Your mother was and remains abusive towards you (and in turn your child). You both need to stay well away from her and have no further contact with her.

If your mother was and is too difficult/toxic for you to deal with, its the same deal for your child too. With you out of their firing line, your brothers and mother will further turn against each other.

@MyLemonHedgehog I want to say how sorry I am that you’re going through this, it’s awful. To reiterate what others have said, stay well away from your mother and brothers. Do it for your mental health and self respect. Easier said than done, I know. It’s taken me 4 years of processing my childhood, the grief, the pain and the awful truth of the people closest to me to finally acknowledge that all they bring is pain and misery to my life. It came down to choice, it was me or them, that simple really. I’ve chosen to put myself first for the first time in my life and I can already see the benefits.

Get yourself into therapy and start processing all of this. It isn’t your fault that you’re in this situation, this make take a while to sink in but have some compassion for yourself.

Thank you so much everyone who responded. It’s lovely to not be questioned or doubted for the first time

(other than in my marriage, although my mother loves my husband and always seems baffled when he is proud of me/supports me)

I have been in therapy previously some years ago, mainly psychodynamic, but I wondered if anyone could recommend a specific approach as my past therapists generally were not able to recognise the red flags in my relationship with my mother, and the fact that my identity was for some time very tied up in hers, which meant I also thought there wasn’t an issue until I became a mother myself…

@MyLemonHedgehog - I agree with all the previous posters about cutting contact with all of them. Sometimes it's the only way to begin the healing process. It's hard, and a bit heartbreaking (I went NC with my entire Family Of Origin), and you'll find lots of support here.

Joining in, after posting on ‘30 days’thank you for inviting me @TheShellBeach.

I will read with interest.

Hi there @Imaala22 welcome!

Re the useless wasteful stuff. I am 31 years old. present a lot younger.

Just present how you are. Due to what has happened you probably look hugely younger. I have been in hospitals all over the country and with one exception have been accepted with love. they cant always do the best possible because they are so so full. But they are lovely.

Say your ps and qs. with what happened as you are probably needing some hugs and kisses. they will really be lovely though. say hi to Oroathai if you're on d5. the loveliest lady. or Sarah really every time. or I shall say hi to Orothai, such a lovely lady.

It's me, again.

My sister said to me today she feels sick at the thought of going back to her house. (She's away for work atm) There is a small sum due to come from dads estate (not a life changing amount but enough a cheap car or a deposit on a flat) She is hurrying me along to complete the forms, I've been extremely busy this week so haven't had a chance to sit down and complete them. To be honest I'm not in a rush as no one helped me when I was caring for dad, now that he's dead there's a sudden rush to sort out everything.
She keeps on at me to complete them so she can have enough money to move out.
Here is my dilemma, I could lend her a small sum to move out & she could pay me back when dads money comes through. I am in a position to help her, she's my little sister. But at the same time I am still so hurt from the way she has behaved toward me.
I'm also worried that if I help her move into a new houseshare, it will all go tits up in the end as she's always falling out with people & she'll be in the same position 6 months from now.
Please advise me on what to do, I have no one I can talk to now that Dads not here. He would help me solve every dilemma, problem, insignificant daily stresses etc.

Do what you would do anyway if your sister wasn't involved - calmly and quietly fill in the forms to have the closure on it. I know it's tempting to tit-for-tat on the 'oh, so now everyone's in a rush' but you can choose to side-step the drama. Play with a straight bat.

And don't lend her money. She's an adult, she can wait and put up with a situation of her own making, like the rest of us. Why is her potential fall out with housemates in six months time ANYTHING to do with you?

Seriously. Unpick yourself from the whole situation. Draw a line.

JellyWellyBoots

Do not set yourself on fire to keep someone like your sister warm.

Do not hurry yourself unduly to complete the forms. DO NOT LEND HER ANY MONEY!!!. You will never see that again. Sorry to shout but it is imperative that you do not do this.

If the positions were reversed would she lend you money in such circumstances; absolutely not. She'd step over you in the street. Enabling her only gives you a false sense of control.