March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@SkylarkDay completely recognise the thing with your dad. The betrayal from him felt much worse than from my mother once I realised he enabled her and fed me to the wolves as a child whilst seeming 'a kind man'. My mother I always knew was a two faced monster.

I'm glad to read your story and how it worked out for your the 2nd time around. I hope I can get there soon too.

@flapjackfairy @SkylarkDay thank you for the kind words. I’ve been experiencing all sorts of emotions and physical sensations over the last few days. I’m so angry one minute and feel guilty the next and then tearful and so rejected.

It’s been brewing for a while as you all know. I then had a special event coming up that I’d not invited my mum too but comments from my bro appeared like she was playing victim and about not being invited, but of course not coming to me direct, I called to test the waters to see if I needed to explain why I didn’t invite her but before we got into that part we managed to get into a massive row, All the stuff I’d been talking to her about she’d relayed it to my siblings playing to complete victim, told me she told everyone what I told her because she was upset (even though she was furious with me) said I was jealous of my siblings and that I was doing this for attention. Denied all the problems she caused for my sibling who is addicted to various drugs, or that they are living in squalor despite regularly telling me that they need to go to rehab. She was absolutely furious with me. Ended the call. Received various messages from siblings asking me why I am being “mean to mum” they are all so pathetic and weak. I send one final message to my sister giving her all the examples of why I’m being mean to her - I carefully made sure they were all about my own experience and mum abusing and silencing me so there was no denying it, sister shared message with all siblings and called me selfish and unforgiving. So that was final straw, I’ve now blocked them all bar one bro who seemed the most reasonable. I’ve even blocked my gran in case she gets involved tho I imagine my mum will be too embarrassed to tell her. It’s my birthday is coming up and it’ll be the first one that I won’t speak to any of them and I can’t bloody wait.

It’s now so evident that I am the SC because they have all been so disrespectful and talking down to me and they are all so shocked that I am standing up for myself, and I can now see that they have all been doing it for years with my mum leading the pack and I’ve swallowed it thinking it’s because I’m a bad person. It’s now clear they are the toxic ones.

I feel free. I no longer have to participate in their lives or feel sad that they have never been interested in being a part of mine.

but it’s early days! I am still fuming so I am mindful that soon the anger will pass and the rejection will kick in.

After another missed call and resulting panic today I messaged my mother to say I have no interest in telephone conversations or messages and I have nothing to say anymore.

Took me an hour and I'm a complete mess. All of a sudden I was the child again that worried what if I need my parents again one day but will be shunned for speaking her truth. I know it's BS and not rational.

My heart is pounding. I think I have been brave but not quite feeling it.

So it is my birthday this month. Historically (textbook) my mother has tried to sabotage my birthday (and holidays and everything bloody else). I hadnt thought about my birthday at all really then my dad mentioned he would be gone out of the country again and wanted to give me money for it before he goes. I have now sat down and tried to work out what she will do now with it coming up. I dont want her to send me a card, I certainly do not want a gift but I know she will do something to tell people she has done something. It is like I am now going to be on edge till the day is over. Fuck sake why are they like this? We don't deserve these people in our lives and definitely did not deserve to be raised by them. Its saddening and maddening at the same time.

@Genuineweddingone oh gosh. I too have just thought about my birthday next month. I'm dreading it and it's so sad. I don't remember a birthday I really enjoyed.

Last year my grandmother had a go at me over the phone. I called her because I know she struggles with phones now etc and she went at me how much I had annoyed her that day already because she tried calling me and it didn't work. She was so hostile towards me. So this year I won't try and call her (I hope) and I have just cut ties with her daughter, my mother, anyway so they can compare notes how horrible I am. I still expect to feel guilt and what not. On my own bloody birthday.

All these years I have found no way of dealing with it. Sorry you are going through it too.

@Twatalert you have been brave and it’s completely natural to feel as you do and have those fears. It’s part of the process. Don’t let that self doubt they seeded into you as a child take over. You’re doing well.

@Supamum3 you’ve so done the right thing. My mother triangulates all us kids against each other too and for that reason, I really don’t think I’ll see much of my siblings either going forward. They’re still under the spell of ‘it’s just mum, we should suck it up’. My sister also had addiction issues caused in my opinion by our childhood but because I’m a lot older than them, and my mum had cast me in the ‘caretaker/caregiver’ role she expected me to not have my own life, or at least put my own lovely family's needs beneath caring for all of them. Trying to forever suck me into some family drama!! As well as the direct abuse she handed out, she also made me feel like I was the family’s social worker, on call, 24/7. Yes you will have ups and downs but honestly after all the crap they’ve caused, it’s so worth while having peace from all their toxic relationships and not being on call for their self made family dramas. Try to ignore feeling rejected, they’re really not worth it.

@Genuineweddingone I’d disappear and go away for my birthday without telling them. This sabotaging of events is so text book. My mother loved sabotaging Christmas every year for everyone. It’s left me struggling so much with Christmas that I now celebrate the Winter Solstice on the 21st instead and made that my own. I’m not religious so it’s been a good way to rebrand xmas and get away from those memories!

Oh what a lovely idea to celebrate winter solstice. I might start to do this too.

I don't know what this is about Christmas. I don't need a big hoo-ha. I like to make myself nice food and watch Netflix but it's like my system knows it's Christmas on this day and it likes to bring up all the old feelings of deep loneliness etc on exactly that day.

@SkylarkDay I actually have flights booked to go somewhere just me and my son for a few days the day of my birthday. I did the same for his birthday earlier in the year but we shouldnt have to. Normal parents would not make this a thing.

@Genuineweddingone well i hope you have a lovely time away together x

I have had another good cry this morning. I'm starting to feel proud of my journey again and relieved. I still have thoughts of being too harsh on my parents but I know it's BS.

All the feelings of grief surface again. The fact that it got so bad I had no choice but to cut ties. I feel sorry for the little girl in me and for the grown up version too. And the realisation that this is forever now. That I will do life on my own and will never know a mother's love.

My friend offered to call later, so I look forward to some distraction. I hope I can start to thrive again soon.

My DM who I haven’t spoken with for 8 years (aside from a phone call a few months ago) due to her behaviour has now been admitted to a hospice a week ago. An aunt has flown to see her and DM’s former partner is there but they are blocking me and other relatives from knowing anything.

I have heard from a friend of DM’s that she is in and out of consciousness, stopped eating, very frail, and hasn’t got long now at all (cancer). Such mixed emotions, death is so final and part of me would like to say goodbye, I hope you find peace because I will.

I’ve also discovered that my DF (divorced from DM, also NC with him for other reasons) has been telling anyone who will listen - family and friends - what a disgusting, terrible person I am not to fly to see my DM as she is dying. Apparently he’s been talking about me for years and has ramped it up as soon as he found out recently about my DM. So not only will I soon be dealing with mixed feelings/grief about DM but may feel the judgement of others who choose to believe my DF. For reference, I have never, ever talked about the situation with my parents to anyone including family as I don’t consider it their business, nor do I want to get into discussions about their opinions. What a tangled web we weave, as DM used to say 😢

Airworld

I am sorry this is happening to you. It’s not your fault your parents are like this and you did not make them that way either.

If you are NC with your dad how is it you know that he’s been telling such crap about you?. All Flying monkeys need to be ignored as they do not have your interests at heart and have their own agenda, they need to be cut off too. Ignore their judgment of you going forward. Those that mind do not matter, those that matter do not mind.

I will start a new thread this week when this one nears 1000 replies.

An aunt on each side of the family has told me, neither has past history for being interfering etc. But as you say, those that matter… etc.

I have finally had a response from my DM’s former partner and it’s clear that what my DM wrote to me last year about her cancer is not the actual situation whatsoever. What she wrote was all lies and it turns out she has been in denial since diagnosis that the prognosis was always terminal (less than a year). I think this is why DM’s sister and her former partner think badly of me, whereas DM told me that she was given a prognosis of 5-8 years and that she was doing so well, no pain , still active and living life. I still have the letter should I ever feel the need to photograph it and send it to them as proof, but I’m just done with it all.

@Twatalert hope you feel better soon. I completely understand what you said regarding grief for you as a child and as an adult, it’s just so incredibly sad children are subjected to this manipulation and toxic behaviour when so innocent. That is what makes it all so wrong. It’s grieving the loss for what we don’t have, but tried to believe was there somewhere and the realisation it never existed.

@Airworld sorry for your stress too at the moment, its so difficult. So many mixed feelings. It was when my Dad had a stroke (thankfully nearly fully recovered now despite his age) 4 years ago that drew me back into their web and giving them a second chance, only for him, not for her. The pressure, judgement & guilt from family can be so intense! However, nothing had changed, even from him, he was prepared to let her torment me still. So stay strong if that’s your chosen course of action. Don’t let anyone make you feel bad x

Yay for the august birthdays!

I feel free to have finally resigned myself to a celebration with my DH and children only and don’t need to feel as though they are ‘missing’ I’m so grateful for this awakening.

@SkylarkDay thank you. You are right, they are not worth it, they rejected me a long time ago but now I’m seeing I really don’t need them in my life. Losing my siblings will be difficult, as I know I won’t see them anymore (although one sibling I am finally happy to let go of.)
@Airworld stay strong, and listen to those wise words from @AttilaTheMeerkat families love a drama around death, definitely remain out of it and grieve separately to them.

I will now start a new thread. Please do not use this one any longer!!!

New thread here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/5135984-august-2024-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes

Hi guys.. it’s good to find this thread about toxic families. Truth be told I’ve always felt different to my family. Long story short.. parents broke up when I was 4/5.. I was put in boarding school at 6..I was left there for weekends so my mother could holiday with her new richer much older bf.. now her husband.. she’s never supported me financially since I left home at 18.. just tuts when I’ve asked for help. I’m now 48 with two beautiful children of my own.. my mother is becoming more toxic as the years go by.. she’s not happy being a carer of her now elderly husband.. and she has a whole host of health issues herself.. mostly bought on by a lifetime of heavy drinking and smoking. My 11 year old daughter doesn’t like her at all..
anyway.. we went there a couple of weeks ago for lunch.. we all hate going as they are so toxic to be around and they clearly hate one another. I’d stupidly confided in my mum that I had been having marital problems.. mostly bought on by my menopause.. but over the table at her home.. from absolutely nowhere she says to my children and husband.. ‘best thing to do with your mother is to just agree with everything she says and then apologise’.. it was said nastily and felt like a real stab in the back given the marital issues I’d had. My children were shocked she’d said it.. but it’s not the first time she had a dig at me for no reason.
I told her via text afterwards that she had upset me.. she didn’t respond.. now she is the one ignoring me .. she never admits when she is wrong.. and never has.. there is loads more to my upbringing that I won’t bore you all with..but
she has become so bitter and hard to be around.. I’d love to go completely NC as I just don’t like her.. or her husband.. what do I do? My real father disappeared when I was 13 never to be seen again.. is it possible to have two awful birth parents?
TIA X

@Kelwar
Why can't you go no contact ? there is nothing stopping you when you think.about it rationally is there?

It’s the guilt.. she makes me feel guilty.. usual story ‘i did the best I could’ etc.. and her ailing health and she’s stuck in a nightmare with a narc husband who can be incredibly unpleasant.. but that’s not really my problem.. she decided to marry him.. and they’ve dragged me through their physical fights since I was about 8… they were heavy drinkers

Long time lurker but I've never posted before.

Question for everyone who's has gone NC with there parent/s, please can I ask how did you do it? Did you have a conversation with them or just go NC?

My mum is an alcoholic narcissist and I've got to the point where I honestly can't bear seeing her or speaking to her again. Nothing has happened so to speak for this to surface but I just want to get rid of that uneasy feeling in the pit of my stomach just waiting for the next unproved attack of what I've not done good enough this time. I just feel I'm done and wondered how others have implemented NC.

Then let her. Stop making excuses.

Agree. Horrible for you, Nicknack. I suggest you think of your own memorial to your dear gran. Whatever it may be. Maybe with a few supportive friends. Flowers in a river, talking about her, remembering her. Whatever suits you. Your memorial for your loved one.

Stay away from your mother. She is hurting your child. Both of them, actually. What more reason do you need? She will not change.