March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@Wigglytuff345 it is different with parents. I think it's really hard to accept that they couldn't love us 'enough' and would treat their children so terribly. I have come to the conclusion that my parents never loved me. How that's possible I will never understand and I don't seek to understand anymore. Over time I have come to a point at which I realised I lived in fear of them all my life. My whole life was ridden by fear. And I can choose to walk away from this and heal my fear. I just want to allow myself the opportunity to live peacefully instead of in a state of high alert.

I’m sorry to hear that, I have some understanding of the fear thing, particularly with my Dad. If it were as simple as them not loving me it would be easy. But it’s not - for instance, they would freak out if there was anything physically wrong with me and then be very concerned. But then watch me be nearly destroyed as a person by my exH and then send him a Christmas card after I left… and tell me they were the ones with PTSD from ‘the stress’ of that relationship.

if it were simple it would be easy.

I hope things are improving for you now? It can feel very disconcerting going from constant fear to no longer having it. Ultimately we just crave familiarity.

@Wigglytuff345 you are right, it's not simple at all.

Freaking out over a physical illness is not always the same as genuine concern, let alone love. There were many times my mother would seem concerned. But in hindsight I never felt it was out of love or real concern for me. Only unconditional love is love. Conditional love isn't love. It's manipulation. It's attachment.

I don't have a life without fear. The fear still very much exists even with my parents not around. The difference is I can work towards being less fearful or having more episodes without fear. I couldn't do that had I remained attached to them.

@Tinkerbell678 I was the same as you for years and saw my Dad as the lovely gentle victim of my Mother’s abuse along with my siblings and myself. However when he let my Mum burn every childhood photo of me when I first went NC and also happily let her immediately cut me out of their joint Will (not that I want or need anything from them) despite the fact he earned every single penny of it (not her), I saw him as he truly was. Also when I told him how violent & abusive she had been to me as a small child and always so toxic to my siblings and I and he sadly said he knew, but couldn’t do anything about it and couldn’t I just put up with her going forward for a quiet life!! (Hers obviously, not mine!!).

Behind her back, he slags her off, agrees and sympathises with us all, but then asks us to continue being traumatised and abused by her to keep her happy. He serves her and that is 100% his choice!! In my eyes now, he’s as bad as her despite his outer appearance of being gentle & kind. I never thought I would ever think badly of him but suddenly after NC you see things as they really are.

I just don’t understand it at all. She said her mom was horrible to her, so why follow in the same steps? I would never do that to my kids. Why would my brother go NC with everyone including close siblings? Is it just easier that way? I don’t think I could bring myself to do it

Tinkerbell

People have a choice when it comes to parenting their children and some indeed do dole out the same treatment that was done to them. Such people need a willing enabler to help them, this person is the secondary abuser. Neither therefore can be relied upon. Toxic crap often goes down the generations but in your case it’s stopped with you.

They also never sought, nor wanted to seek, the necessary help. You have two qualities your mother does not have either: empathy and insight.

Just coming on quickly to say that I have blocked my mum, sister and brother, the NC starts now.

I will read posts and update more later but for now I just wanted to write down that I’m finally finished with them all and I’m looking forward to leaving them behind and getting on with my life.

Tinkerbell

Ultimately you may well decide to do what your brother has done ie adopt a no contact position with your family of origin. All their dysfunction will continue to permeate through your life otherwise. If a parent is too toxic, difficult etc for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your children as well. Don’t forget too that FOG fear obligation and guilt are quite powerful and are buttons these toxic parents installed in their now adult children .

Well done ! here's to a brighter future.
@Wigglytuff345
I hear you completely because I am exactly the same. I feel like I am constantly on a swinging pendulum through a whole myriad of emotions . I swing from seeing it all clearly back to feeling guilty and thinking I imagined it all.
It was all quite subtle in my family. My parents were loving in some ways and we had lovely Christmases and holidays etc but underlying it all was a fear of stepping out of line or not coming up to scratch . The fear of condemnation and disapproval was ingrained in me and I realise now that I was constantly anxious and on edge. I became the typical people pleaser and made excuses for being treated badly at times ( occasionally beatings by an out of control father though that was rare. And he was also, interestingly, primarily focused on my mother's happiness and would punish anything that caused her stress or unhappiness ). I was never allowed to say anything negative and there was no place for any honesty or ability to be real.
It has left me struggling my whole adult life to love and accept myself and the constant veiled criticisms have undermined me even more over the years but I drew the line when they started trying to undermine my children and put them under the same weight of expectation. I have not been a perfect mother but no one going to do to them what was done to me. Instead of criticism I tell them endlessly how wonderful they are etc and they have turned out to be lovely adults . I have broken the cycle but I still ache inside because I never received the parenting I have given them.
sorry I am waffling but what I wanted to say was trust your instincts. if they had beaten you black and blue every day or been verbally abusive in the extreme it would be easier to feel.justified in how you feel but real damage can be done in many subtle ways also . You are not a horrible or bad person because you are feeling these thoughts about your parents. You may well still love. them. I know I love my family members who have hurt me but I am trying not to give them any power over me now . They may have reasons for what they do but you do not have to stay in the role assigned for you so that they can hurt and destroy you. I am finally realising that I can love them but not have any real relationship with them any more. It is sad but there it is . I am choosing a better path.
take care xxx

@flapjackfairy thank you for your kind words. I completely relate on the point about your Dad being primarily concerned with your mum’s happiness, mine is exactly the same, and frequently spiralled into a rage when angry, breaking things, yelling. My housemate called up the stairs to my other one this morning and I went into a blind panic. Apparently I can’t handle raised voices! I hadn’t realised I was so sensitive to things until I moved here.

I am completely messed up by the relationship with my father and have made terrible choices in regards to men and sex as a result. My family have completely ostracised me since I started to heal and make healthy choices for myself and have boundaries and that hurts. It’s like it was all fine when I was ‘playing my role’, but now I’m not, I’ve been banished.

so happy for you that you have chosen to break the cycle with your own children xx

@Wigglytuff345
That's v interesting because I am exactly the same! I started having panic attacks because the neighbours had friends round and the men were talking and laughing. Just normal noise but the sound of mens voices even raised in excitement sends me into complete panic. I am generally nervous around men I don't know well anyway and always have been but I have only realised why since I started to.deal with my issues from my childhood a few years ago.

Tbh I thought most of my issues around men were because of SA as a child but now I think it’s 90% to do with my father. I’m not sure how to address this. I think having a healthy relationship would help heal this but it doesn’t seem to be happening for me. I know going LC with my parents will help but right now I feel pretty down about myself despite knowing I’ve done the healthiest thing I can do.

weird how doing something very self-loving somehow doesn’t make it feel like you love yourself!

@Wigglytuff345
I know it is a process that takes time. I also suffered some low level SA from a family member and all my life I shrugged it off as no big deal. In fact I didn't even acknowledge it at all but the process of looking at my childhood made me reevaluate everything. I was constantly told by siblings that I.was fat and girls were useless etc. it was harmless sibling nonsense according to my parents and to be ignored. I was a skinny little thing with cute blond curls as a young child but hey presto ! by the time I was in my teens I was struggling with eating disorders that have plagued my whole adult life. I became what they said I was in effect ! But weakness was failure so to.this day my parents have no.clue ( dad dead now though). I sought no.help.or support and just got on with it.
So yes I get it ! You.feel.worthless.BUT it is not true! You are choosing to take the steps to protect and show love to yourself. You are doing a v good thing even if it doesn't feel like it. So be kind and patient with yourself, allow yourself to feel sad and grieve and there is hope on the other side as many people on here can testify ! x

Well done for taking the step and I hope you finally get some peace. Don’t stress if you have ups and downs, plus guilt and doubt, that’s very normal, they’ve done a good job of programming us that way! I hope they don’t cause any hassle for you but be prepared and my advice would be don’t interact with them however tempting. So worth it long term though, as once you stop the continuation of the abuse & toxicity, you can finally start the process of recovery & healing .

Sorry if you’ve explained this before but are you able to block contact? Or divert it somehow so you can only look when you feel able to?

I spoke to my therapist today who told me my parents are not normal and have been abusive and it helped, to have that validation. Been driving myself mad all week.

we’ve got this x

Block, block, block.
Change your phone number if you have to.
Protect yourself.

I'm in the same camp today. I haven't blocked my parents. I haven't even told them I want NC. One day I just had nothing to say or explain anymore and stopped engaging. But they are still trying and it makes me miserable every time. The guilt, all the scenarios in my head of what's next, the constant hypervigilance about anything and everything. Anything I do I feel my mother judging me and I have a constant stream of criticism from her in my head.

My therapist said I'm miserable because I don't feel emotionally safe around them. That I'll feel safer if I tell them this is it. I don't know if telling them will make any difference. They don't normally respect boundaries I express. I somehow hoped they'd just stopped trying and I could live in peace. I thought they would.

@Twatalert I really don’t agree with your therapist at all. If I said this to my mum she’d have an absolute field day as it’s basically admitting you’re vulnerable or emotionally weak to a powerful toxic bully. Personally it would be showing my mum a huge great chink in my armour where she could shove a bloody big knife!! She’d love crowing to everyone how I was obviously mentally weak or unstable too.

Best thing to do is block, ignore and move on/heal/recover. They’re not capable of empathy or understanding. They’re looking to provoke a reaction all the time, they play with our emotions like a cat with a mouse. How can opening up to them like that help. Personally I think ghosting & showing indifference towards them is the best course of action. It seems your therapist is pushing you more towards reconciliation with them and if this isn’t something you want, you need to make that very clear or see someone else in my opinion. Many parent/child relationships cannot be fixed and why should we continue sucking up abuse just because we’re biologically related to them. We’re worth more than that x

@SkylarkDay maybe I did not express this properly, but I really don't feel like she's pushing me towards reconciliation. She's in fact not pushing me towards anything. This is about my suffering under the weight of not feeling entitled to tell them what I want to say or do what I want to do. How I want to go about this NC. It's clear that for me it's not about ghosting. It's not the best way for me. I need to tell them for my sake. Not for theirs.

@Twatalert everyone’s situation is very different and I don’t know your details like your therapist, so if you feel you need this release then maybe it’s something you need to consider. However in my situation because my mum is an abusive narcissist of the first order, that would be the worst possible thing I could ever do, all I will ever get from her is pain and she thrives when we’re weak. That’s why she tries to forcibly project health anxieties onto us all. I hope you get some clarity on your next steps. It sucks being stuck in a circle of anxiety!

@SkylarkDay I agree there will be an aftermath. Possibly they will not respect my decision. It's so weird because even though I know that I still feel ghosting isn't the right way for me. Tbh I only realised this today during my therapy session that this is the thing weighing me down. I have guilt for a long time every time they reach out to me and I don't engage. I will have guilt if I just block them and they find other ways like letters etc. But I think I need to tell them and deal with the aftermath but it would lessen my guilt for never engaging again. It's so weird. I really didn't expect this kind of guilt and weight that just doesn't want to shift.

@Twatalert Well I suppose if you try it, you’ll know if it’ll help or not. I’d definitely be prepared for possible disappointment/pushback though, and remember to be kind & compassionate to yourself if that is the case. Initially I was really hard on myself and felt incredibly stupid for giving my lot another chance and expecting things to be different. I felt I was even a failure at NC!! However the flip side of giving them another chance is that I now know I have no other choice which helps with the guilt. The guilt is always there somewhere but I find the longer I am NC the relief & peace from the abuse starts to outweigh the guilt. Good luck with whatever you decide x

@SkylarkDay it just goes to show how different we all are. I didn't plan to go NC. I just stopped engaging and then realised this is what I want. That I want to continue to not engage. Funnily enough I'm never tempted to give them another chance or 'give into something'. I hold no hope there. I'm not conflicted in that way. I know I'll do the rest of my life on my own. That the worst is already over.

But the guilt is making me more and more depressed. It's too heavy for me and it's getting worse. It's holding me back. Not shifting with time as I also assumed. I think I need a clear conscience. What I have tried, which is to ghost, doesn't sit right with me.

Now I have written another essay. I suppose this thread serves as my diary today.

@Twatalert its so helpful to hear/share other people’s thoughts & experiences. My guilt was definitely regarding going NC with my Dad first time round, as I thought him sweet and kind. However after 6 years NC previously I had changed & grown a bit of a backbone, and when I gave them a second chance this time round, I clearly saw him as the enabler he really was and how he fawned over my Mum when he knows what she did to us all. I think seeing that reality broke my heart a little as I’ve always hated my mother so going NC with her was easy. It’s definitely not an easy journey!