March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

@OnePeachLion we have all fallen for the old 'maybe they will behave better' we are all hopeful and the hope crushes us because of course these people NEVER change.

@rollerbutterfly they always follow a script. My mum would behave appallingly so I would ignore her. Then she would get bored and I would get 3 phone mssgs within 30 mins, she wanted what she wanted, when she wanted it.

1. Hello darling it's mummy here.....blah blah please call me (syrupy sweet)
2. Darling I have been calling..... Blah blah (less polite)
3. Stop ignoring me and pick up the phone you stupid girl (I'm 63) into full incoherent ranting and raging.

Full on narc rage, she couldn't stop herself, I would be reading or working laughing my arse off at her raging to an ansafone! Usually followed by a mssg from my dad an hour later begging me to talk to her as he was getting it in the neck. Unless you have experienced it you wouldn't believe it. They will do anything to get their own way.
You have to draw a line in the sand and walk away. They know they can manipulate you, you are weaker, conditioned to do as you are told, it will always be this way. It is not about confrontation it is about avoiding it and becoming completely indifferent to their childish, spiteful behavior.

Anyone unsure to grasp the nettle, honestly go no contact, it is the only sanity you can get from the situation.

It's frustrating that they've portrayed me as the problem and made others believe I'm the one causing trouble.

Same here. She caused everything yet I am the problem cos I won't allow her to abuse me or my son anymore. It is horrible that they do this to us and very unfair but all we can do is stop the cycle.

@OnePeachLion we’ve all done it. I gave my mother another chance after 6 years NC! Feel like a right fool for falling for the sob story letter I got after my Dad’s stroke. 🙄 They’re manipulative monsters who love reeling us in, just to kick us back down again. Part of their sadistic agenda.

However going forward I wont be handing out anymore chances plus it’s made me realise I ideally need to be pretty LC with my siblings whilst my Mums alive to avoid too much toxicity passing back. It’s like a poison!

How do I go no contact?
my mother has BPD. My dad is a lovely soul … but he has allowed her abusive behaviour to myself and my siblings for too long. My brother has gone NC. Which is so sad, we were so close. And she has completely ripped our relationship apart.
last week she stopped taking her tablets. All because it was my birthday and my sisters were on holiday… no attention was on her.
I got sent pictures of ‘fat’ woman on my birthday because I told her I was having a Chinese.
She then lit a disposable bbq in her bedroom; tapped the doors and windows shut to try and breathe in the carbon. I can’t deal with this anymore. She went to hospital after I rang the police. They said she was mentally fit for discharge wtf! This isn’t her first time doing something stupid.

But then I remember the days when she has good days, when we get on, when she bakes cakes with my children.
my head is scrambled. Wtf do I do?

You literally just need to block and disengage. I say that as if it is simple and it is far from it, its the hardest thing you will do but my mother has done the same, totally tarnished my name, slandered me etc and my brother also does not talk to me. My sister believes all her lies too. It is so sad they do this but they will never change. I used to think of the good times too but the bad ones far outweigh them.

@Tinkerbell678 you need to get your father down from the pedestal. Instead of thinking of him as a lovely soul you need to understand that he's an enabler and has therefore participated in the abuse. I assume you grew up with him in the picture. This would mean he did NOT put the wellbeing of his children first.

Your mother you need to block. Can you revive the relationship with your brother instead?

Also, remember that 'the good times' with your mother are just part of the cycle that keeps you attached. Nobody is abusing someone 27/7/365. That's why it's so confusing.

Yes the good times are the hoovering ones. She sucks you in to a false sence of security and bam then she will hit you with something else when you least expect it. Its very hard.

But essentially my dad has also been abused, so can I blame him for enabling us to be abused too?
the stress of it all makes me physically sick 😩

@Tinkerbell678 no because when he is not being abused by her he is allowing her to abuse you so deflecting the abuse. He is also a grown man and has chosen to stay with an abuser. You need to stop this cycle. Its hard but you can do it. Wishing you strength x

@Tinkerbell678 this is hard and I struggled with this for a long time. Growing up I saw my dad as the gentle soul. But once I began processing my childhood I started to feel the betrayal he put me through.

Hurt people hurt people. Your mother was probably also abused as a child or why else did she turn out like that? You are allowed to put yourself first completely. You can have compassion with someone and still choose to end end the relationship.

Genuine wedding one is right. He allowed your abuse if it meant it wasn't his turn to be abused. I saw the same pattern in my family. They all picked on me. Even the 'good soul' ones. I just didn't see it for a very long time. It meant that I was the scapegoat and they weren't, so for them that was the better outcome. It's not acceptable as an adult.

@Tinkerbell678 regarding the stress... This is very real. You probably don't feel entitled to rock the boat, speak and believe your truth and do what's right for you. Because you were conditioned like that. So it's very stressful and emotionally extremely challenging. So you need to break free one small step at a time. At the same time see what your strategy could be to cope with the emotional turmoil this causes.

I find it hard too that my other sister constantly says ‘but she’s ill’ and sometimes I do sit and think , cut her some slack. She’s ill, ‘doesn’t think like us’ and ‘can’t help being the way she is’ and the good old ‘but when she’s good she’s good’ how do I get passed these thoughts? I have my own therapist who is a god send. But I’m still not 100% sure what to do. Her advice was 2 options, 1 strict no contact and 2, contact but firm boundaries

If you are ill you seek treatment, if you are narcissistic you do not because you do not believe you are ill nor than anything is wrong. I am not sure many narcs actually want to change either to be honest. They want to play the victim while still pulling all the strings. They are nasty, maniupulative and very underhanded. It takes more than a few hours off meds if they would even take them to form plans the way they do and they do form plans of how to hurt others, manipulate people against each other, manipulate people into thinking they are somehow being wronged. I do not actually think it is an illness I think they are evil. Only evil people set out consciously to hurt other people.

@Tinkerbell678 if your sister believes your mum is so ill then you tell her fine, you will go no contact and she can be her crutch. Watch how your sister then becomes the target instead of you. They always hurt the people closest to them because they feel they have them on a hook.

@Tinkerbell678 why is your sister's opinion more important than yours? Is she the golden child or something and doesn't fully see the impact of the abuse?

You do not have to continue a relationship if it does harm to you. It doesn't matter if it's a family member and are supposedly ill. You have a right to live life the way you want. You can only allow into your life what is good for you.

I was mad at my father and brother for a long time for never calling out my mother or recognising or just validating the impact her treatment has had on me. One day my therapist said 'how would they know what it's like if they haven't experienced what you have?. Exactly. Has your sister walked in your shoes? No. No child is being treated exactly the same in any family. Even in healthy families. Your sister's experience will be different from yours and all that matters for you is you and your experience.

They hurt those closest to them [family] because no one else would put up with it, to us it is our normal. These women/mothers don't have friends so they can only pick on their children. The husband/spouse enables because they are usually covert narcs getting all the sympathy for having to be the quiet/gentle soul stuck with an evil bitch wife.... except they are not stuck they choose to stay and throw their kids under the bus. The parent who stands by and allows his child to be abused/neglected is every bit as sick and toxic.
@Tinkerbell678 I also felt sorry for my dad until I understood how manipulative he was. There are plenty of unwell women who are excellent mothers unfortunately yours is not one of them. Illness is not an excuse. My mother was a spiteful, vicious alcoholic and years later said she beat me, shamed and neglected me because of the drink! She chose the drink over me every time, it is never an excuse. Getting drunk everyday was her choice, no one else poured the booze down her throat. They rely on our good nature to excuse them, the very fact they are sometimes nice shows they have control. Bit like me, I swear like a trooper but never swear at work as it wouldn't be professional so I certainly could clean up my language if I chose to.
Going NC was the best thing I did for myself, it isn't easy but neither is being the scapegoat. Boundaries do not work with these bastards they love a challenge and will enjoy destroying them. I one day just said enough and blocked my parents and siblings, I had nothing to lose, you can't miss what you never had. The guilt is just a tool they use to get their own way.

@rollerbutterfly I would just tell her to fuck off no apology.

@rollerbutterfly your mother is showing you again who she really is. Don't doubt yourself or try to make sense of it. Don't allow her to continue hurting you.

I’m one month out from moving out of my parents’ house, and despite feeling ecstatic at first, the last few days it’s really hit me how much living with them and how they had treated me had undermined my confidence.

I have housemates and I realised I was basically constantly apologising for even existing for the first couple of weeks. Worried I was an inconvenience or in the way. I hadn’t realised how much I’d been walking on eggshells previously. I had only been living at home temporarily as last few years have been trying to rebuild my life following Leaving an abusive marriage.

anyway, just at that weird stage where the grief kicks in I guess. They all met up for a family event and didn’t invite me, though I sent presents. They haven’t asked how I am since I left. Only told me they would throw away or burn anything I left, and I had a week to sell any furniture I’d left there before they chucked it.

I still feel like the problem might be me, and I just feel really unsure of myself. It’s worse than when I left my exH.

@Wigglytuff345 well done on leaving the marriage and your parents house. Everything you say sounds familiar.

Thanks, sometimes I just worry I’ve made it all up in my head.

when I left my exH I knew it was the right thing, but it’s harder with parents. I know the fact they haven’t even bothered to talk to me since I left speaks volumes but I just can’t help feeling I am the problem.

It’s not you wigglytuff, it’s your abusive parents who are at fault here. They made you the family scapegoat. They also primed you from childhood to accept an abusive marriage and it’s to your credit that you have now left him and your parental abusers behind. Continue to stay away from your parents. You may also want to enrol yourself onto the Freedom programme as this is for those who have been in abusive relationships.

@Wigglytuff345 in their eyes you are the problem but objectively you are not. Do you think any of them think they are the problem? Do you think they reflect on things like that?

You were conditioned to think like that. That's what their eggshells have been 'good for'.

Thank you - I know about the Freedom programme though I have never done it. I left my exH over three years ago, and I knew what he was.

it’s less black and white with your own parents. I thought it would become clearer once I got some distance but I feel more confused than ever trying to get my head around it all. I haven’t missed them though so again probably quite telling. I just feel low on confidence and like I don’t know who I am.