Abuse is everywhere

[Eastwestt]

Cheating, lying, financial abuse, emotional abuse etc is so common, I’m actually shocked to come across any relationship that doesn’t feature abuse.

Not sure why I’m posting. It’s just something I have very depressingly realised lately.

Friends, colleagues, relatives etc - the experiences are countless. From all walks of life. Including my own experiences of men too.

Often women don’t realise they are experiencing abuse.

Not having access to money for example.

A husband who cheats and is therefore putting her at risk if STDs, not allowing informed consent, gaslighting is abusive. But many see an affair as a glorious tale of passion and stars aligning.

To the poster who said NONE of her friends or family are in abusive relationships - I will be surprised if that is the case. Sadly people don’t talk about it as they are ashamed and often stay ‘for the kids’.

That’s awful @Threecrows . It’s a shame your husband didn’t at least have the decency - for want of a better word - to be honest about his feelings and intention.

I believe deep down these men are ashamed that they weren’t able to stand by their commitment to their wife/ partner. And their pride and ego makes them not want to acknowledge it, so instead of admitting they want to be with someone else, they’d rather be abusive. It really doesn’t make sense, but it’s something I’ve noticed from experience & observing others.

I had a colleague whose ex suddenly began ignoring her, being rude and aggressive, and dropped out of going on the family holiday. I immediately told her he was cheating and advised her to get a STI test. sadly she didn’t believe it until she found a birthday card from his work colleague calling him “the best boyfriend” with a cosy photo of the two of them inside.

He just didn’t have the courage to say he was calling time on their marriage so he was basically pushing her to say it.

When she didn’t get the message from his behaviour I believe he dropped the birthday card clue deliberately, as he knew she’d definitely file for divorce then which she did.

It’s depressingly common how often I see men push for the maximum cruelty approach, when they’ve gone off a woman instead of just having an honest conversation.

Does anyone have advice on how to help a friend in abusive marriage?

It's been 8/9 years of abuse and she always swears she had enough and will leave but it gets swept under the carpet until next "incident " . She always confides in me , it's very upsetting and she is getting more and more depressed..,

I feel helpless as i try to convince her to leave , saying it won't get better it get worse and she says she understands this . However nothing ever changes .

In fact last year her husband moved out but she tried everything she can to get him to come back and he did and now things are even worse .

To be fair, you have no idea what really goes on in all your friend's relationships but I do agree with your general point

Statistically, it is perhaps likely that a couple of people posting on this thread are abusive.

This is such a tough one. Not only does it depend on your friend’s personality, but also events in her marriage- who knows what her breaking point will be.

General points would be to remain a sympathetic and supportive friend. It keeps the line of communication open, but sadly it’s up to her to leave.

Looking back I wish my friends had flagged up early red flags they noticed in my ex ( which I didn’t know about) , but would I have believed them? At that point my ex was still lovely to me.

One Friend actually made me face my fears of leaving ( losing my home). She said that yes, that might happen, but I couldn’t spend my life with an abuser for a nice house. Somehow saying it out loud gave me the courage to tackle it. And I was able to keep my home.

@Threecrows it's so hard and heartbreaking.
He doesn't pay bills , asks her for money and if she says no he calls her all names under the sun in front of kids .
He gets in his moods where he will wake her up shouting . He tells her he will leave her when kids grow up .

Mocks her disability. She needed ambulance other day and he refused to call , then. eventually called and made out she is faking pain so they didn't come .

She doesn't tell anyone except for me .

I been begging her to kick him out but after each "incident " he calms down and they are fine for a week then it happens again .

I know it's selfish to say but after 8/9 years i'm mentally exhausted . I tried everything to get her to kick him out , now i just listen and am compassionate , ofcourse but it takes it toll on my mental health .

If we're honest we've probably all behaved in a way that some posters on MN would describe as abusive at some point. That's not to downplay it, just that it's a spectrum and none of us is perfect.... the world isn't split into "baddie" abusers and "goodie" people like me.

I feel this is probably truer than we like to admit. I think it likely also comes down to whether it's chronic or occasional.

A poster above was saying her partner would 'act unpleasantly' if she was out for too long and he thought this was acceptable behaviour. It made me think of all the threads about 'husband was meant to be back from pub two hours ago' and how OP is often encouraged to 'tear him a new one' when he gets back. I think a lot of people who are abusive probably wouldn't agree they are, especially if others condone their behaviour.

Yes like many on the thread I have known numerous women in abusive relationships, there are a couple of friends I’m worried about at the moment but not sure how to broach it without upsetting them, and I’m the child of an abusive marriage/abusive dad. I’ve had some relationships with genuinely nice kind men but my longest term partner and dad of my DC was passive-aggressive, gaslighting and wouldn’t pull his weight. Because he wasn’t actively hitting me or withholding money etc, I thought it wasn’t that bad (because of my experience growing up) but I eventually realised he resented me deeply because I kept on trying to make our relationship and responsibilities equal, instead of just buckling under and being a supportive wifey who put myself last (even though I DID go part-time when he refused my suggestion of us both doing a 4-day week, and did almost all the childcare and mental load etc).

I think deep down a LOT of men are massively resentful of women because at a very deep, often unconscious level they really do think women are there to provide sex, look after children and run homes so that men can do what they like in terms of their career and their leisure time. Then they will justify the woman doing more/providing whatever they want on the basis that they earn more. With some men that resentment is more overt with violence and coercion etc. with others, especially your lefty liberal mr nice guy who thinks he’s a good person, or your pillar of the community type, it’s sometimes more suppressed but comes out in more covert ways (though they can be overt bastards behind closed doors too).

I think many men see their right to a live-in sex slave and domestic servant (whether they’d be able to articulate that to themselves or not) being unfairly taken away by feminism, changing laws, women expecting to be an equal partner etc and it makes them really angry - though some will suppress and deny that. I also think a lot of men are fucking pissed off that their previous right to all the professional jobs, policy-making, country-running etc is now not a thing. A woman {who they deep down think should be a domestic slave) could be their boss, or could be doing their job better than them at work, and these men hate that and it adds to their rage.

When people say not all men, that’s true, I have known nice kind men, genuinely. What I wonder is what causes a man to be like that - to be genuinely respectful and not resent women - because I do think it’s not the norm. I’ve raised a man and I really worry about it. I think he’s nice but then I would. I hope if he’s ever in a relationship where his partner is suffering or getting a shit deal, I’ll be able to see that and be on her side.

Well if rolling your eyes at someone is abuse then yes I’m sure we all have been abusive at some point 🤦‍♀️

Just thinking of who I know.

My parent’s relationship was most definitely abusive. Financial abusive and coercive control being up there. Myself and my sibling are not in abusive relationships thankfully. Out of my friends I would say most are happy. One I think the male is very controlling, but she’s happy with it.

Through my work I know of lots and lots of dysfunctional families which impacts the children unfortunately.

Regarding what to say to friends. If they are telling you about what’s going on, I’ve found the most effective thing to say is “I’m always here to support you if / when you want to leave, you can always escape to my house, I’ll help you pack/pick you up” etc and say that regularly. It helps them make that decision on their own instead of saying “you have to leave” which can feel like more pressure or judgement.

if they’re not telling you and you just suspect, that’s really hard and I don’t know what’s best, as mentioning it could make them angry or defensive and not want to see you. I just try to keep being there as a friend but I don’t know if that’s better than bringing it up.

For friends in abusive relationships who don't leave, just be a good friend, keep in contact. You are not a therapist however; set boundaries for what you can handle.

People can get very damaged over time in abusive relationships. You cannot fix them, only offer to help if they ask or you really think there is an imminent risk to life or the children. Even then, the chances are high that there will be no change.

Women are the weaker Party generally in a relationship and over time, an abusive man will break resistance of any kind. The idea is compliance at all levels. It is breaking down psychological resilience; and you don't carry the trauma of that for your friends. It will hurt you too.

To be fair, the way I read their post was that they were implying that abuse doesn’t happen anywhere near as much as it actually does and that it isn’t the norm. Unfortunately we only need to read the many threads on MN to know that abuse is rife, whether that be in relationships, friendships or among family members. I don’t see it as a pile on per se, just that being the victim of abuse myself, somehow implying that abuse is a rare thing and doesn’t happen to ‘normal’ people with ‘normal lives’ is quite patronising and offensive

I wonder sometimes whether complaining that is normal on forums like this normalise it.
If a woman is working full time, is the one to do the emotional support when he is weak, pampers him when he is ill, is the primary carer for the kids and takes on the bulk of housework, then I would consider that at least borderline abusive.
Reading places like MN, you would think it is normal to put up with it and men would think it is reasonable expectation.

No of course not. But I do know friends and family very well, and I am certain none of them are in abusive relationships. This is fact, not naivity.

My brother is abusive. I went NC a couple of years ago but he is still verbally abusive to my very elderly and vulnerable mother. He does not live locally, he visits occasionally but mainly shouts/criticises/threatens her etc on the phone.

Can anything be done? it’s horrible

Strange/ surprised ?
My comments stand either way.

I grew up in a dysfunctional family, my family relationships were dysfunctional .
Nothing I wrote was aimed personally at you, it was a general comment.

@MrsWhattery

"I think deep down a LOT of men are massively resentful of women because at a very deep, often unconscious level they really do think women are there to..."

This bit rang true to me. Almost no-one considers themselves the baddie, only forced to do things by the unreasonable actions of the other. For men, not being seen and admired as they might expect can be felt like an attack.
That goes both ways. If patriarchy teaches women they need their man to be happy, they will also blame him if they are not happy and abuse him accordingly.

Everyone will think they are empathetic, but how do we tell the difference between people who are empathetic to their own feelings first and foremost. They all say the same things.

Absolutely agree with this. This was also my experience except I was financially abused too. No one would have known my situation and it remains that way even to this day.

I think men are ‘having to give way’ to women in the workplace and are expected to do their share domestically which is new territory for a lot of them and they really don’t like it.

But with all our knowledge now as distinct from my first relationship years in 70's, why are the men growing up to be abusive? What are parents teaching or not teaching their boys?
My DF wasn't abusive to DM, exdh wasn't abusive ( though had an affair) my db's were abusive and male to female abuse was rife
So do we think our next generation, say the boys who are now 10-16, will be less abusive? We have education about abuse now, we have more open ess so what on earth is still going wrong? I imagine the vast majority of people on here are women between 30-50 who will be bringing up the males of 10 onwards. Would it be fair to assume then that the majority of these boys will not be abusers?

Its strange that you're being called out for not knowing the inside of your friends and families relationships. Surely those saying you can't know don't know either. Your view is just as relevant as theirs, even more so as its unlikely the other posters have any idea who your friends and family are.

My friends are I were discussing the bad behaviour of a man we knew. They both worked full time and he would normally just bring takeaway when it was his turn to cook. We genuinely thought of this as very bad.
If his wife read Mumsnet, she would think she was lucky.

Read it in context

But with all our knowledge now as distinct from my first relationship years in 70's, why are the men growing up to be abusive? What are parents teaching or not teaching their boys?

The bottom line is many parents co-sign misogyny or unhealthy abusive behaviours particularly in boys. Look at the “boys will be boys” attitude that many people including women of age 30-50 still use to pander to boys. Not sure if many people younger than 30 use that phrase as well, but wouldn’t be surprised if they do.

And then there’s the massive issue of absent fathers- that impacts boys in a very specific way and sometimes they develop a resentment towards their Mum for not being “able to keep their dad around” which they can’t quite articulate or confront, so they take out their contempt or resentment on other women.

My cousins dad was a deadbeat, two of the siblings kind of accepted it but my oldest male cousin who desperately clings on for a chance of a relationship with his Dad also likes Andrew Tate. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he was the one hit hardest by his Dads absence. He is quietly resentful of women’s success in the workplace including me - his own cousin. This man is in the 30-50 age group - if he has a hand in raising a son in the future what will that look like?

And women can teach their sons all they want how to behave but if they’re letting the kids dad or worse still a random boyfriend treat them badly this is modelling poor behaviour for their sons (and daughters).
So present yet abusive dads are also a massive issue.

The increased knowledge we have now is probably causing more women of all ages to be more clued up. However, that isn’t necessarily making boys/men improve their character. What is happening however, is males feeling very angry at their entitlement slipping away and the increasing amount of women choosing to be single over dealing with bad behaviour . So they are jumping on red pill movement talking points instead of working on themselves to become better. From a young age girls are taught to be people pleasers, think of others and to fit in. In many homes and classrooms, boys aren’t taught this to the same degree and thus they get very angry at the idea of having to better themselves or rethink certain behaviours to receive acceptance from women.

These men will grow up and father children, if they don’t already have them - and pass it on by setting a bad example to their sons & daughters of how to act and what to tolerate. And so the cycle continues…