Abuse is everywhere

[Eastwestt]

Cheating, lying, financial abuse, emotional abuse etc is so common, I’m actually shocked to come across any relationship that doesn’t feature abuse.

Not sure why I’m posting. It’s just something I have very depressingly realised lately.

Friends, colleagues, relatives etc - the experiences are countless. From all walks of life. Including my own experiences of men too.

My impression, certainly speaking to my Dad and his generation, is that there is a presumption that my feelings and thoughts will matter to my OH. The whole challenge of having to persuade and justify feelings and package them is a challenge that there has not been preparation for.

Power corrupts and men have had too much of it for too long.

eventually realised he resented me deeply because I kept on trying to make our relationship and responsibilities equal, instead of just buckling under and being a supportive wifey who put myself last
I remember a light bulb moment when I realized that whilst my idea of what is fair and right in our relationship was 50/50 his was more like 70\30, I was trying to make things fair whilst he was doing everything he could to work it all to his advantage.

You are taking what I wrote out of context regarding the word ‘strange’. I was meaning that psychology in itself and how it affects people’s behaviour is strange! I didn’t mean that I’m ’surprised’ that abused people go on to be victims in abusive relationships or that I find it strange! So you can allow your words to stand all you like however you have missed my point entirely. Also strange and surprised are two different words with two different meanings!

I sometimes think of the analogy of a "level playing field". If you think of men and women as two opposing football teams, A and B, on a playing field and the field is slightly tilted downwards towards team B's goal. (As an analogy for the disadvantages that women have physically, reproductively and societally.) Team A will naturally have the advantage and score more goals but they will think it's because they're the better team. When Team B figure out that they're at a disadvantage and bring a bulldozer to level the field out, some on Team A might think fair enough, but many will have a big adjustment to make from feeling like they're naturally better and deserve an easy life, to having to give up that entitlement to make things fairer for what they consider to be an inferior team who they should be able to dominate easily. All they see is something being taken away from them by the inferior, disruptive and difficult Team B and their bulldozer.

I think you’re absolutely right. There have been several threads where a lot of posters have called the man the OP was describing derogatory names and swear words and advised her to do the same and kick him out for scenarios where it’s just a case of one-off inconsiderate behaviour, that we don’t even know the real reason behind. Also advise to chuck their dinner over them, throw ill-received presents in the bin, withholding sex, giving the silent treatment, describing their penises in derogatory ways… etc. If it was a predominantly male forum for dads and a woman came across it, it would seem totally misogynistic and perhaps incel-like and there would be shock. The amount of times I’ve read ‘Why are men so shit?’ ‘All men are shit’, etc, which I understand is to show solidarity and to vent due to awful behaviour being described, and that the poster is likely to have experienced, but like I say, on a dads forum, if uncovered it would likely be making the newspapers for misogyny and hate-speech. The double standards are just interesting.

This is amazing 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 spot on! 👍🏻

Great Post @Swizzlersandtwizzlers

Toxic families also exist where trauma from previous generations is played out.
Think Golden child vs Scapegoat.
Often this is enacted by the matriarch/ patriarch who is bullying and controlling and everyone is meant to tiptoe around them to keep the peace.
This is the job of the Enabler, usually the other parent

The trauma they have suffered is enacted out onto the family so we have Golden Child , the hopes and dreams of the family are poured unrealistically into this child who can do no wrong whilst the Scapegoat has the vitriol and anger poured into them.
The GC is never accountable, doesn't develop emotionally as a result.
The male GC grows up to be the entitled, abusive male or future matriarch if female

Scapegoat either leaves the family( NC/LC) , is cast out for not complying or becomes a further victim of abuse in another relationship.
And so it goes on ...

I like that analogy. I do think these things are hard for men to see and not just because they are men per se.
I think it is a bit like two cyclists heading towards each other, one going uphill and the other against the wind - both will be aware of their own disadvantages and not notice what the other struggles against. (I write this in the context of, I think, women having it harder).
Even in my 40s, I am shocked by how much creepiness women put up with. But I do not see it directly, it is when I do see it that the women are so casual and clearly used to it. Men do not act like that in front of me and I understand why many men are oblivious.
There is the advantage of being the default, which is what men are in society despite being a minority. Work is still set up traditionally around men. But to me, that seems natural. Just as people who are very average will think they are socially skilled so men will just think they are well designed for work, rather than work designed for them.
Most men will not be abusive, but if one in ten people are abusive, many of them will have been in a relationship with an abusive or certainly unpleasant woman. That means they end up agreeing with the abusive men when the subject comes up.
I can see many aspects of how patriarchal Britain is coming from living in Scandinavia. Any many of these things affect women too and make their actions more rubbish.

Well informed view. Most men are looking to replicate their own upbringing. Women are often looking for something like equality of labour. This works well or okay when there are no children. But when there are you will find out what a man really considers his role is.

Abusive men often proclaim themselves big family men; it's the way they can change what a woman does because she will help the children to her own detriment. You see it on here all the time. Women are now saying "no kids" because of that, in increasing numbers.

I think it’s definitely something to consider, like a PP has mentioned, that previous generations of women had to essentially put up with their lot or face homelessness and financial insecurity and so current men’s grandmothers and possibly mothers will have also done this and there will have been a long legacy of the women being advised by female family members that this unfortunately just the way it is. Now however, with women earning considerably more money than previous generations and filling different professional roles, as well as a shift in societal expectations, we are expecting what we are entitled to, which is more. Not more than men but more than women had before us which is equality with men. And unfortunately there are still older ppl who have become so indoctrinated in the past status quo that they haven’t moved with the times. This also has a bearing on the expectations of younger men. If they are from a household where the women did the majority, if not all, domestic duties including child care while the men’s leisure time was their own, they will see that as the norm and are likely to feel resentful if they don’t receive the same treatment. That’s not to say it is justified, but that I think is the reason behind a lot of it. It’s a shame that conversions around this subject aren’t gone into more deeply at the beginnings of relationships before long-term commitment and children come along. What is each partner’s expectations? If they do, do these change as relationships progress or does one party just tell the other one what they want to hear to appear more attractive to them?

I’m unfamiliar with the current PSHE curriculum in schools, but surely that is where children need to be taught the real expectations of what it means to be in an equal relationship, not just what a healthy sexual relationships should look like, but the mundane, everyday running of a household between two equal partners, which should be their ultimate goal if they want to form successful long-term relationships with other adults, regardless of gender.

Most men would be frightfully more abusive, if they could get away with it (society rules). Simply this.

It is interesting that some countries, notably Denmark, have done a better job of supporting families and women working, in a way that is not financially ruinsome. So women can earn money, they can succeed in careers, not just jobs, and their children are not impacted. They are actually empowered; the men accept and are supportive? It's more mature in terms of how it thinks a society should look like.

It would be interesting to know what these countries are like in terms of domestic abuse. My guess is that are far better than the UK.

Women are now saying "no kids" because of that, in increasing numbers
I agree @bombastix,!
Furthermore, my feeling is that men are increasingly not wanting to have children because they know that women will push for a fair division of labor and it's harder for men to get away with having it all on their own terms?
Or to put it another way, the pool of naive women who are easy to exploit is decreasing?
(Or is that just my wishful thinking?)

Men often say no to the kids but that's after they are already born.
Behave appallingly to get a reaction from their wife/ partner, blame her for reacting/ not prioritising them/ not enough sex and they skip off into the sunset with a new partner and leave the wife ( always her fault he did this) and children to start a new family.
Never his fault , the ex is " crazy, won't let me see the kids"
Tale as old as time

@Gloriosaford - I would agree. I think any young woman who does want children would be well advised to look at her partners parents. That will be the arrangement once the children arrive. It is the default. Being romantic and saying we can do it is easy with no kids. The woman can walk away. The woman with children is not so free; abusive men love children as a tool of control. Eyes open if your prospective parents in law live in a way that you could never bear for a minute, you should drop the man. It's his template. This is why there are cycles of abuse, why men "change" after kids. The family tells you it all, imo

I live in Denmark and am married to a Danish lady. I agree it is more mature and state support for working families is far, far better.

I would say, be careful what you wish for. Marriages between Danish women and British men much outnumber marriages between British women and Danish men. The ones with British men and Danish women are less likely to ned in divorce than if either married their own nationality and marriages between British women and Danish men are more likely to ned in divorce than if either married their own nationality.

The Guardian likes to publish articles about how much more housework Danish men do, the reaction on the Brits in Denmark Facebook group from the men is that Danish women just acknowledge it more and British women in Denmark complain their Danish husbands do not lift a finger.

There is a big difference it seems to me in the confidence of women. Women are more empowered, but that does mean that there is less patience for women complaining rather than acting. Equally, men are more allowed to complain and moan.

I was married in previously (a good anglo-saxon marriage) and the upshot was that she was advised to be less selfish and lazy and I was advised to consider moving on. Meanwhile, Mumsnet considered my an abusive husband. That she was doing all the emotional labour was discounted as I was doing the housework, had the job and worked on trying to make the relationship work.

Denmark is certainly ahead, but this comes out in perverse way. As I have a nice marriage now, I have had young women asking me (rather than my wife) for relationship advice.

Eyes open if your prospective parents in law live in a way that you could never bear for a minute, you should drop the man. It's his template
Oh lordy if only I could time travel, all we can do is warn our daughters!

That's exactly what I thought when read that post!

It adds to it that a lot of women are attracted to dark triad traits. They're more likely to be abusive than someone who is genuinely nice and kind.

@Sweden99 you raise some interesting points; really my view is that Britain has given up on any kind of social progression for women - it really has stopped on saying employment is possible, and then having a financial structure which actually keeps the old ways of the woman in place but with additional work. In that sense it's just exploitative. A lot of lip service is paid on the status of women, dealing with domestic violence etc but when you look at the money spent, the structure of our society etc then the truth is we are overall misogynistic: and it's voted for consistently by low tax, low intervention government. Denmark is proof at least that you can change things, whether British society actually wants to vote that in is clear. The answer is no. The status of children and their care is a private matter, and there is no wider vision.

Incidentally the Danes teach empathy in schools- we don't. It starts young

@bombastix, From here, it looks as though Britain has given up on any kind of social progression entirely.
I am very, very happy in Denmark, but it still has issues. For all of its advantages, British women and Danish men do not seem to make a good mix.

I think there’s a lot to be said for this. Also if their mother spoils them when they are kids it’s likely they will look on their female partner to do the same, as you say due to the template. It’s interesting, in these cases, that the mother does this when they are a child and yet they expect it to continue when they are an adult and in a relationship with an equal, as opposed to their carer (mother). Maybe their mothers still ‘spoil’ run around after their dads too, which is what they witness growing up and feel entitled to as they become fathers.

The way they see women I think does change once they become a mother as they transform from an attractive equal that they want to please and share responsibility with into ‘mother’, or variants of their own mother, and so their expectations change accordingly.

Interesting (disappointing) psychology for sure.

I think while women continue to be objectified as sex objects some men will continue to see them as non-equal. In a way they would see a homeless person as non-equal or 2nd class citizen. They don’t think about their possible emotions or anything on a deeper level as they are beneath them and not real ppl in the way their mothers or sisters etc are. Sadly men are taught from a young age to do this through film, magazines, music videos etc. where women are basically a walking pair of barely covered breasts with little importance placed beyond their physicality. And women are encouraged to adopt this image as an empowering ideal via the media by (let’s take a wild guess) men!

Women who are potentially sexually ‘available’ (as in outside of their biological family) are seen as ‘other’ to these types of men who haven’t yet got to know them. They’re not the same as their mums or sisters or daughters, they’re showing off their bodies so they clearly want sex and are preoccupied with their own physical attributes. Thankfully the representation of women has been changing to give them a personality beyond the hero’s sex toy, but you just have to look at tv shows like Game of Thrones - who really cashed in on on the rapey, sexual abuse of women popular in porn over the last decade or so, to see that things haven’t really changed, or more worryingly they’ve gone full circle.

I could go on and on about this subject but I’ll stop there. I’m not saying all men are like this obviously, or all (or any)women want to be seen in this way. I’m just trying to highlight what makes some men possibly see some women as their non-equal. I’d be interested to hear others’ opinions.