January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Attilla many thanks. I read your advice often on threads and it is very sensible. I'm going to contact my lawyer this week. The social worker is pushing me to do this because it makes their life easier, I'm aware of that. Mum has been extremely critical of me over the years and downright nasty at times. Every occasion had to be about her. When she made my daughter cry at my 60th birthday celebration, I decided the gloves were off. I detached from her emotionally. I visited from a sense of duty. If she made a nasty comment, I left. There is little love left but a sense of duty still remains.
My brother has leeched money from my parents for years. He lives in mum's flat and pays nothing towards bills. Mum even bought him a car. This despite him having a lump sum and a pension which exceeds my income. He has sole access to mum's bank account and it transpires that he's still using it to pay bills, despite mum being in hospital for nine months. He is a functioning alcoholic. If I am guardian, he will have to hand over her bank card etc. He has no realistic view of the future and has decided he will buy a canal boat to live in. Bearing in mind he's in his 60s. I am not commenting on this fantasy of his, but I'm not going to let him drink away mum's bank account when she'll need every penny for a care home.
That's the long story Attilla. I go into this with my eyes wide open, but I do appreciate your input

@user38495473

Take your happy clappy ignorance and fuck off.

HTH

Wow. Quite the rant there.

Having read this thread I think everyone on here should be very careful when taking 'advice' from seemingly well meaning posters. No one knows who is hiding behind a username

Ask for help if you need it but not from some random on mumsnet who lures you in and pretends to understand your journey, remember mumsnet is just one big vacuum and full of dark corners and sick people

The irony, though.

Looks like The Hag has made herself a mumsnet handle.

@user38495473 ever heard of the saying "if you've not got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"

It's none of your concern what people choose to heed on this page. It's a supportive, non judgemental space for people with toxic families to vent & ask for advice.

Please do one.

I actually think most of the advice on here is incredibly helpful.

The possibility of seeing messages like that is what has put me off from posting here for many months. Maybe two years, actually.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand before this final illness of The Hag I was considering handing the guardianship to social services, due to what I would predict would be unreasonable behaviour from her if we took it. The advantage to you would also social services seeing your brother’s tricks should anything ever get legal. Because he’s useless, he won’t understand the implications of this…

@TheShellBeach absolutely the right thing to do. You wouldn’t be able to do right for wrong.

Oh god, I missed the lunatic posting. Could it be one of the helpful ‘you’re a load of spiteful bitches who need to forgive and forget’ posts?

@Sicario I’m grateful that the Hag is technologically illiterate. Otherwise, I imagine she would bug the house and hack my phone and email.

Thankfully @TheShellBeach those posts are very, very rare. The gang rallies round and see them off.

I’ve found the advice and support has kept me going.

Hag update
The hospital is trying one last round of treatment for the growing amount of fluid on her lungs. They can’t get cannulas in her. They’re using a nebuliser on her. She was sitting up in bed yesterday scoffing ice cream, but much of the time she’s asleep so unable to be nasty. I’m going to the hospital for a short visit to support Mr Monkey and/or meet with the Dr for an update. Slave Son is distraught, Mr Monkey is very upset.

Much as I loathe her, I want her suffering to end, much of it is self-inflicted, but this final illness isn’t like walking the dodgy streets at 5.30am to get the first bus to Slave Son’s house to clean for him (code for screaming at him) and falling in the street and on another occasion getting mugged. Police told her not to go out at that time, but, of course, she disregarded that advice and continued. It didn’t matter that she worried SS and MM sick. That’s the level of disordered thinking we deal with.

@MonkeyfromManchester 😂 speaking for myself I have never denied that I am a spiteful bitch 😂 bum I missed the post.
My honest review of this thread is had I bloody listened and actually acted on the advice, I would have saved myself 12 months of mother's shit show, what turned out to be her worst behavior ever [that's going some] I still chickened out with LC causing 12 months of tears, anger, hurt, upset. Finally I took the advice to go NC and my life just got better.

The post was the usual patronising blend of 'forgiveness' and 'parents try their best' and 'posters could be anyone', with some very nasty remarks towards @MonkeyfromManchester and @AttilaTheMeerkat.

Genuine wedding if you're not sure, I'd acknowledge the 40th because society places big store by "zero" birthdays. Just a card and token present, if you're not really in contact. Not money. Unless someone is living in abject poverty they don't need another adult putting £10 in their bank account and if you're not really in touch it doesn't warrant a more generous gift, say £100, that you think she won't be grateful for. Then you've got ten years to see how things go and decide if you're going to acknowledge the 50th or not. How old is nephew? I'm wondering did he get the money you sent. I'd send a present in future.

Just pixels on a webpage in cyberspace, pet. Try not to give something so insignificant the power to hurt you. The person who typed it will be the type of person this thread is about, who delights in others pain. Deny them that pleasure, if you can. 💐

MonkeyfromManchester, thanks. I know what you are saying but my brother is more scared of me confronting him than social work at the moment. I will, however, keep the threat of handing it over to social work in my armoury.
I read the horrible posts earlier and was dumbfounded. I have only ever had good advice from both posters mentioned. I hope it wasn't on the back of something I said.
Monkey, you are kind and have Mr Monkey's health at heart. Let's hope The Hag has a quiet end. It's probably more than she deserves

@binkie163 lolz. Amen. This forum taught me the Hag was a coercive narcissist, gave me the vocabulary to name her behaviour, helped Mr Monkey and I to talk about his mother’s dreadful behaviour, gave me strength to say a big fat no to her shit and supported me to support MM into therapy where he was diagnosed with CPTSD.

OF COURSE, I AM MAKING THIS SHIT UP. (That’s for the benefit of the dick who gave us a jolly good telling off.). 😂

@FreeRider i wish I’d seen it so I could be to true to form and be a nasty bitch and tear a strip off the moron. I hope the moronic poster is reading this as she has NO idea what my toxic mother in law put her children through. Psychological abuse and the sort of physical abuse that put her kids in A&E. Now most of her bile is directed at her DISABLED son. But, OBVIOUSLY, I am completely wrong to be angry about any of that as the moronic poster knows so much more about my life than I do.

@Schneekugel 150% right about that person. Possibly a deluded parent whose adult child has said ENOUGH, or as you say someone so twisted that get off on being vile.

back from the hospital - I went to support Mr Monkey - after an hour. The Hag is doing ok despite crisis. She’s too weak to be unpleasant. Mr Monkey has the patience of a saint with her. Slave Son looking terrible.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand I’m loving the fact that your brother is scared of you. It sounds like his life is a mix of car crash and cushy. I think the muppet poster probably had PMT or something. 😂 thank you, I’m really kind person. Thankfully, I had a happy upbringing - reading people’s stories here I count my blessings - so I’ve got an inbuilt ‘I must ignore this person’s appalling behaviour’. However, The Hag is not remotely kind and pushed it too far with MM for me to close a blind eye. Even though the Hag has been an appalling mother and a vicious MIL, I want a quiet end for her.

He was 2 and I am sure she wil buy him something out of it. She is in aus so its the way we have been doing things up to now. I might acknowledge her bday. I have a few hours to think on it!

I think this thread is fantastic. The support and welcoming tone is something I have never experienced before, my social media is full of positive family interactions and although I suspect a lot of lies, it's tough seeing my friends have lovely times with their mums when mine is such a cow.

Being able to post on here without judgement has done more for my mental health than any therapy. I haven't got further than wearing iPods under my hat to block out her verbal diarrhoea but at least now I know I'm not alone

Hi I’m a long term lurker on the thread but first time posting and I’m looking for a book recommendation or audiobook if anyone has any suggestions?

I’m currently part way through Toxic parents by Susan Forward but I’m looking for a book specifically that helps with setting boundaries /techniques and coping mechanisms.

I’m having issues with my mum, she’s always been a problem as she’s always causing major arguments and drama within the family but it used to be few and far between.
She’s fast losing her health and has had to give up her hobbies over the years. Since this has happened the abuse arguments and drama have really ramped up not just with me, my sister other family members and also her friends, someone is always on the receiving end. She’s got nothing better to do so seems to create drama in her own head. My dad doesn’t join in so to speak but plays a part as he will be the one who secretly rings to tell us we’ve upset mother because mother has deemed we haven’t visited enough/ last visit I didn’t ask how she was despite it all being about her and her problems or whatever issue she’s made up in her own head this week. She’s also an alcoholic and at least once a month gets completely pissed and rings us all at 3am telling us how horrible we all are towards her. My phones on DND so she tells my answer machine.

I’m looking for coping techniques for my own sanity as I’m not in a position to go no contact at the moment, I’m as low contact as I can be but I just need to learn how to deal with it in the meantime because as time is going on the worse it’s becoming. I dread looking at my phone each morning to see what abuse there is and it’s really stating to affect me.

Has anyone got any recommendations for books to help me deal with how to handle situations/ techniques and that sort of thing?

Regarding the birthday scenario mentioned above...

I went NC a good while before my Highly Toxic Sister's significant birthday. After the awful slagging off and sustained hate campaign, she texted me to ask if I was coming to her party. I was like , WTF NO WAY, but put politely. I also sent a very nice gift so as not to place any animosity in the mix.

I am certain that the only reason she requested my presence was so that she wouldn't have to explain my absence. She had already garnered a reputation for falling out with people and has no significant long-term friends.

Stay way from dysfunctional people.

Stay way from dysfunctional people

Absolutely this. None of my children (all adults) will have anything to do with my sisters, either.

The oldest sister is forever organising family get-togethers and sending invitations to everyone.

She doesn't seem to take the hint. She nearly destroyed me, years ago, but has no regrets or remorse.

@PinkCherryBlossomTree99
Adult children of alcoholics, excellent book.
Plenty of helpful and healthy coping stuff. My mum was an alcoholic, alcoholics are very selfish corrosive people to be around, their constant 'poor me' shit is toxic.
Back in the 90's I use to go to a monthly adult children meeting to vent. I found it hard to admit my mum was an alcoholic to anyone, I was so ashamed of her and embarrassed by her. Tbh when she sobered up in her early 60's her behavior was still manipulative and grandiose.
Alcoholics ruin the lives of everyone in their orbit. My dad was also an enabler.

PinkCherry

You can try reading Drama free : a guide to managing unhealthy relationships by Nedra Tawwab. I would also consider reading Codependent no more by Melodie Beattie.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles, what are yours, your sisters and your dads roles here?. You’re all playing out roles. Your dad is enabling her behaviour and throwing you under the bus in the process. As your mother is an alcoholic it may be worth your while contacting Al-anon as they are very helpful to others affected by another persons drinking. You need to remember that you did not cause it, you cannot control it and you cannot cure it. Keep distancing yourself from both your parents. Keep reading Toxic parents also.