January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Hi all. I am a lurker with narcissistic parents that I'm no contact with. I made an account just to share my favorite book with practical help for Pinkcherry.

"Adult Survivors of Toxic Family Members" by Sherrie Campbell. Especially part three which has all kinds of info about how to go low contact and no contact, and how narcs typically try to reestablish their power. Highly recommend.

Thanks all for your openness because it makes me feel less alone.

@binkie163 - I agree with everything you say regarding alcoholics destroying everyone in their orbit. In fact any kind of addict, it's the same thing.

@MonkeyfromManchester

You didn't miss anything from the bellend poster & they soon got removed.

You're in my thoughts.

It's interesting how many of us have an alcoholic parent. My mother is a functioning alcoholic and has been for years.

It's not that long ago that she 'fell' and rang me crying because she can't get herself back up and her head was pouring blood.
I rang an ambulance she was admitted to an and e, lots of sympathy from the nurses and doctors until her bloods came back. She was eight times over the drink drive limit !!

My husband went mad as she had me running around feeling guilty as I've been reducing the contact due to her nastiness.

She now has kidney problems and the doctor was very blunt and told her she will probably be dead in a year if she doesn't stop. But no, she's still swigging away playing the poor me game with her stupid neighbours. Part of me hopes that doctor is right !

My mum told social services and my sons school that I am an alcoholic. I do love a glass of wine but she drinks every single night of the week. I know it is projection but its so frustrating to be lied about in that way. She is obsessed with talking about alcohol too. And her bowel movements. Very distasteful if nothing else plus nobody cares about your innards.

Hi everyone,

Thank you so much to everyone who noticed I was gone and enquired (inquired?) after me. I often catch up on this thread last because even if I can only read with sympathy I want to give the thread my full attention, and the posts tend to be full of detail. So sympathy and flowers to all (except that deleted poster who said whatever they said, it sounds like it was unhelpful!)

I had a long-ish emergency hospital stay which sort of papered over the cracks a bit, but the first thing my mother insisted I do after discharge was have a bath upstairs, my legs gave way on the top step and I bumped all the way down hitting my head, back and coccyx on every step, so it may not have been the most effective medical intervention ever performed. Obviously my parents’ main reaction was to scold me for being clumsy while I got up pretending it was as painless as I could manage.

The doctors and nurses were lovely as was the lady in the bed opposite, but @MonkeyfromManchester I think the ladies on either side of her embody two sides of the Hag’s personality - one constantly wept very ostentatiously, complained that the privacy curtain was partially closed on one side of her bed, bitched audibly about me and my new friend consistently and insisted she couldn’t stand or walk and required two nurses/HCAs for all tasks (spoiler: she could stand and walk perfectly fine when it suited her). The other lady was very sad - obviously severe dementia with some friendly periods but other periods where she was screaming PLEASE! HELP! Kicking and spitting at the HCAs, trying to escape from the bed and falling, swearing, threatening to slap them for the entire night continuously (about 7pm-8pm). She’s clearly just really ill but it goes to show there are Hags everywhere…

I don’t quite know how to put this but I’m not going to go in to the latest shenanigans in my family for now and may lurk for a little while as I’m always going back and forth on whether I’m abused or abuser and if the latter, which according to some posters and my parents I am, I oughtn’t to be on here. If I have useful advice I’ll post though. Keep on keeping on you brilliant people (male victims and family members eg MM are included). I will however leave you with this little vignette. My parents called me in hospital and I asked how my grandmothers were (one has had a series of TIAs and the other has had stage 3 breast cancer diagnosed). My dad said his mother was doing well, mobile, reading the newspaper, still independent, progressing well. My mother spent fifteen minutes on how much of a selfish idiot her mother is for not selling my mother her house and moving into my mother’s other house - all the better to control her, also we get rants at least this long and at least once daily, it’s a HOUSE and she is your DYING MOTHER FFS - and then right at the end said “oh yes, she started radiotherapy yesterday” and for some reason actually laughed because my nana is being stoical about it.

Thanks again for your kindness everyone. Hope it’s as bearable a week as possible.

Sending love @cecile ❤️

It happened. DH said it was him or my mother.

@Sicario yep alcoholics/addicts only care about themselves and indulging their addictions, they have no care for anyone else, while constantly complaining they are victims!
@Davina69 I dont blame nurses/Drs getting fed up with alcoholics, its not really what they went to university for.
@Genuineweddingone yes it is odd how alcoholics spend so much time thinking/talking about other peoples drinking!! definitely projection, they seem obsessed with alcohol. My mum was even worse when she stopped drinking, talk about 'there are none as holy as the recently converted!' she would gloat when anyone relapsed in her AA group.

Sending love to everyone.
Interesting about the comments re: alcoholism. I agree my dm projects her issues with alcohol on to everyone/everything. no one dare have a drink or mention a drink around her! And always the victim in every situation. Sometimes she moans to me about toxic friends/ppl and im just nodding along…. Saying yes… i know!
Definitely going to read the daughters of alcoholics book recommended - thankyou.

I managed 24 hrs in peace and then yesterday another stream of missed calls/video calls.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
Glad to hear from you . I had also noticed your radio silence so glad you are back.
AND please hear me when I say this ( and I am being presumptuous enough to speak for all of us except that poster that was deleted obviously ) NO ONE thinks you are an abuser or have perpetrated any abuse on your family. They are truly awful and I wish you had a way to escape their clutches. It is long overdue.
Take care of yourself x

So how did you answer? Hugs to you

@PinkCherryBlossomTree99

I’m so sorry to hear about your nightmare mother. Al-anon (for partners/families of alcoholics) might be a source of support. I’ve never dealt with them so I don’t know whether you’d be presented with a load of bollocks like “you must help them” when it sounds like you’re at the end of your tether. Get a cheap second hand mobile, give them that number and only look at the phone when you have the strength. Could you and your sister sit your dad down and say your mum’s behaviour is out of order and you don’t want to hear about the drama from him. Sending hugs.

@strawberryfizz
Thank you xxx

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
Bloody hell that hospital stay sounds horrific. And I’m so sorry you had to go back to the crap at your mother’s house. Your mother is a monster. Take care and keep posting as we are all here for you. You are not an abuser. X

@Genuineweddingone
Your mum is a huge fan of projection. You’re a bad mother and a problem drinker? When she clearly is.

News from here.

45 minutes ago, Mr Monkey got the call from the hospital to say his mum is dying so he’s dashed off to the hospital. It’s as I predicted as I’m not at all tearful for her, but very sad for MM and his brother Slave Son.

I hope MM has no guilt about the way he now sees her, how he’s described his toxic family accurately to his therapist and how he has stood up to his mother. I don’t feel any guilt about going low contact with her as I became another person she could abuse.

And, of course, she kept her control up even in her dying days as Slave Son confided in MM that he wanted to sell his house (a death trap terrace for someone with MS), buying a flat and getting a mobility scooter. He said “don’t tell her.” Too scared. The house was all about her, a connection to the slum area where she had lived. It’s unbelievable how selfish and self-centred she has been all her life.

And to complete the fucked up family... Lovely sister in law messaged her toxic ex-husband (MM’s Golden Boy nasty twat of a mother) yesterday to say his mother was near death. He read the message and didn’t respond.

This is the son who did all the performative Irish “I worship the ground my mammy walks on” promised to support her financially and be there for her in her old age. Has he fuck. He fucked off with his second family (which he had when married to SIL) and hasn’t been seen for seven years by anyone. Stood up his learning disabled son in a cafe. Hasn’t paid maintenance. Fought SIL for the FAMILY home where she was bringing up HIS sons. Hag still maintained that he would care far better for her than MM and Slave Son (nice) and talked incessantly about the granddaughter she’d never seen and ignored her grandsons (unless they could offer narc supply) Be interesting to see if he rocks up to the funeral.

such a fuck up of a family.

@MonkeyfromManchester Its hard not to say something inappropriate, so I hope it's swift and peaceful.
I am so grateful I was NC when mum went, no hassle, no funeral and no drama.

@binkie163 thank you. I want a peaceful end for her, mainly for MM’s sake, to be honest. God, I hear you about the drama.

@Spencer0220 I didn't really… it’s an easy answer (him) but I don’t feel it’s that easy to do. Been trying to go low rather than NC and it doesn’t seem to work. Even a teeny bit of contact affects me (and in turn us) in a huge way.

Sending love @mm x

And lo and behold! Golden Boy gets in touch after SIL rings him to tell him his mother is dying. He didn’t answer her texts, but read them. He doesn’t have Mr Monkey’s phone number. WTAF.

After LC with my sisters left me feeling annoyed and uneasy, I opted for NC a couple of years ago.

I highly recommend it.

Monkey

People like Golden boy really do crawl out of the woodwork at times like this, have seen this type of behaviour quite a lot after years of no interest. He's perhaps also thinking of her will and testament if there is one.

My best wishes to you and MM

PurBal

What happened to make your DH give you such a message?.

Sounds like your fear, obligation and guilt talking at you. Ignore those voices these toxic people put into your head. LC is not always an answer here because the toxic people ride roughshod over and or ignore any boundaries that are set.

@AttilaTheMeerkat oh, he’s ‘too busy’ to come to Manchester from Scotland tonight.

He could fly. Or, because he’s absolutely loaded he could hire a driver.

She has very little £ so I doubt that’s of interest. I would be very surprised if he turned up at the funeral.

Airily to Mr Monkey “give me a ring in the morning”

No message for his mother who put him on a pedestal and spoilt him at the expense of the two sons who have dealt with every aspect of her life.

proud of MM for being really coolly matter of fact with the prick.

yep, a total selfish, abusive narc.

chip off the old block.

I’m at the hospital to support Mr Monkey. She’s fading fast.

@MonkeyfromManchester Best wishes to you and MM. I hope for both your sakes the end is quick and quiet.

@AttilaTheMeerkat she decided to invite decorators to our house to quote for some work. They’re people she’s know a long time so also invited them for a two course lunch (provided by her but cooked in our kitchen) with wine. She had offered to pay for said decorating and we had declined but she invited them anyway. Told me like it was a suggestion, I said no. Then told DH it was happening. He was furious. I’ve put my foot down and I’ve had a barrage of messages and multiple missed calls. Mixture of guilt tripping “you’ve messed them around now, what am I going to say” and infantilising “you clearly can’t cope”.

Pur Bal

She let these people into your home and cooked them a two course meal in your kitchen?!. Your mother (and she does not deserve that term) has no boundaries when it comes to you does she?. You're to her an extension of her.

I would message her, "your friends, your problem and one you brought upon your own self." Then block her from being able to contact either your DH or you. Do not put up with such crap. Ask yourself whether you would tolerate this from a friend, that answer would likely also be no.