January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

It's a hard day for me because I haven't been able to speak to my mum 😞. Thankfully my lovely children are brilliant and made it lovely.

I know that some of those looking after my mother dislike her. They are top performers when it comes to toxicity.

Sending best wishes to those who find today ver painful x

I got up at 6AM to make her a card. She took the time to tell me how evil I was. I'm not sure I can win.

Do you know why you did that? You may as well offer her your heart on a plate to reject.

Why did you make her a card, Cecile?

I just did. My dad reminded me - I did know - and I wrote it for her anyway. I wanted to be nice. Also JFC but she dumped a load of beer by my bed and a bowl to throw up in. I feel like that is not a nice way to behave.

@Compash yes the behavior patterns, I always knew my mum switched hot and cold but once you see it for what it is, it's so obvious, very manipulative. Also the less I bothered, the more dramatic she became.

I know I've been off-radar for a while, but...

Fuck sake. Another death in the family. I guessed as much when the flying monkeys started circling.

My alcoholic brother (with the awful wife who was sending me hate mail prompted by my Highly Toxic Sister and her twat of a husband), has died suddenly.

I got a call from my disabled brother (that's a whole other story), who is asking please-can-you-be-my-sister-again. Jeez. I really really don't want to go back there under any circumstances. I spent years trying to help him to no avail as he was his own worst enemy and I was not his next of kin. He's been in and out of psychiatric units for a decade.

It's not his fault he's disabled. It's an acquired brain injury. However, he is also autistic (undiagnosed), was always very hard work, and bullied the shit out of me when we were kids.

Now he's scared and lonely and has a pretty sad life.

I have agreed to meet up with him, even though I really don't want to. The thought of it actually makes me feel sick. I feel I need to explain to him that I have nothing left to give to anyone, and that I don't want to revisit any part of the dysfunctional family I walked away from.

I feel really badly for him, but I'm never setting myself on fire again to keep someone else warm.

Solidarity to all, and thanks for listening.

Well, you're right, you can't win if you don't protect yourself a bit more. Handing her a opportunity to rub salt in your wounds is self-sabotage.

Oh, @Sicario I'm sorry. That's hard, but no, no visit to your brother. You feel sick at the thought for a reason - all the trauma you have been through in that relationship and the wider family. Just no. You've tried hard previously. A visit now won't actually change anything for him, but is reopening a world of pain for you.

Sicario

You can change your mind re meeting your brother, personally speaking I would not meet him. Given how you are feeling as well I certainly would not meet him. You can write him a letter stating what you have said in your post rather than telling him face to face.

You cannot set yourself on fire to keep some else warm.

Just say no!. No is a complete sentence. Do not send yourself potentially back to square one.

@Sicario

Not sure how you are staying so calm.

Does your brother realize he bullied you?

Not his fault he is disabled but it's not your problem, it's not your fault.

No one stepped up and helped us after we left home as teenagers, we learned to sort our own shit out. Helpless, clingy people give me the rage, harder to get rid of than a sticky bogey.

We do them no favours helping, they never learn to stand on their own 2 feet. Infantilize themselves rather than take responsibility and will happily drag you under with them.
I think it's hard to say no but is it worth the upset, you will have to say no eventually, might as well be now, his needs are long term, he needs a long term solution and that isn't going to be you xx

I just feel so bad, and I wish I hadn't said I would come and see him. I was seriously caught off guard. Writing is no good - he can't read any more due to the brain injury. Although I guess it's the only route given the circumstances.

I've long ago forgiven the bullying. The hitting and sniping and making my life a misery.

I'm so done being the family punchbag.

You don't owe him anything @sicario

He's reaching out because he's scared/feeling angry/vulnerable - not because he actually wants a respectful loving relationship

I'm good old mn language "no is a complete sentance"

@Sicario It is hard because we are not naturally unhelpful/unkind people, we have had to grow a 'fuck you' persona just to deal with our families.
I find it unfuckingbelievable that even when NC they will still try it on if they have the chance. I have to admit that the 'scared, lonely & sad life' bit made me feel bad for him, we are as easily triggered to care as we are to run for the hills.

Do they honestly think they are the only ones who have struggled, have felt lonely or sad!! the truth is they dont care about any difficulties we have experienced. He needs to suck it up like we have had to do in the past. I think he is cheeky to ask.
Its a shit situation for you, a reminder to me to be vigilant in keeping all forms of contact blocked. I think meeting him will give him false expectations of you looking after him..

Again I dont have the mental space in me to reply to all posters even though I would love to help but things just so fucked up for me now.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau please please try and find anywhere else to live. Please try to get out of that house. Please. You are a wonderful human being and you do not deserve what they are putting you through. They do not realise your addiction and your anorexia are caused by them because this is the mental way you have tried to cope. Please get fucking OUT of there as soon as you can and by any means. They are destroying you. Physically, mentally and emotionally. Please get out.

Sicario

You feel bad because you care but this man only wants to use you as some sort of emotional dumping ground. I would not assume he is at all on any autistic spectrum either given there is no formal diagnosis. Asd as well does not equal abuse.

it is ok to change your mind about seeing your brother. It is ok to say no here.

In other news my nice aunt continues to be let down by her so called carers. This is going to be the second company the mob family will now have to rid themselves No mention of putting her in a care home, they have their beady eyes on the money!.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I'm so sorry to hear that it's still hell for you. It's very hard not to be a people pleaser in these situations. Hugs.

@AttilaTheMeerkat they really have got their eyes on the main prize, haven't they? Horrible.

@Sicario oh my god. It's so hard not to be on the back foot with this kind of thing. You are fine - as you know - to roll back on being in contact with him. It's so fucking hard with this. Huge hugs.

The funeral for La Hag (toxic MIL) is on Weds.

Mr Monkey is dealing with all the death admin (brilliantly) and wrote the eulogy today. It's cleverly written so as not to be ridiculously hypocritical or just laugh out loud funny. I've just said it’s great - it's factual. There's no “she was the best mum ever” because she wasn't.

Best part of half an hour re-writing the bit where MM now cleverly skates over the ‘complexity’ e.g., Toxic Golden Boy’s complicated family life (the…er…cross over family and that he was a truly nasty shit of a husband, son, father, and brother) Tempting to put a Monkey version in…

Mr Monkey has just been briefing the cousins and his mates (the pall bearers) on the phone re Toxic Golden Boy. I'm upstairs with a vino wishing Wednesday to get here sooner and this endless shit can have a big fat red line under it.

Dealing with her shit since 2020 in spades, but have dealt with her aftermath for 20 years. Booked us a long Easter weekend in a nice hotel complete with a seaweed bath which, I hear, is good for stress. 🤣 There is also a bloody lovely bar.

I'll be thinking of you on Wednesday @mm xxxxx

@MonkeyfromManchester
A big fat fuck off red line.
Hotel break excellent idea, you've earned it.
Hope it goes as well as can be expected x

Let his other sister step up.

I have been in this situation - scapegoated by a toxic sibling (every family crisis needs a nominated scapegoat) - the other siblings stood around and did nothing to help me. Then after I have been gone for years she starts scapegoating another sibling - who comes running to me after NC for 3 years.......I took great pleasure in my non engagement.

You reap what you sow.

She actually wants you to be a drinking, non-functioning alcoholic, doesn't she? She's nasty. I hope you were able to get rid of the beer and didn't drink it.

I understand the "being nice" thing. I texted because I wanted to be nice. So I texted because it was me being me. I didn't expect anything in return. I got brushed off, didn't want to chat, busy with someone else. Fine by me, I didn't want to chat either. If I thought I was going to get a nasty response though, I wouldn't have texted.

I think you're right, you can't win. So you may as well not bother.

@Schneekugel I've reached the fairly difficult conclusion that she actually just wants someone to kick around and blame. The most recent thing that is my fault is the electricity shorting out, which she has decided is because I have used the cooker. I have anorexia so it was a big deal for me to use the cooker in the first place and I to my knowledge used it perfectly and went above and beyond for it to be off after (turned it off at the wall etc). Then she got the plate and took a picture and then had another go at me after sending the bloody picture around to my whole family. She sent a photo around my whole family. That is actual insanity.

You need to move out, Cecile.

Hi guys, I desperately need some advice. I think I've shot myself in the foot a bit with this one.

When my dad passed away, His dog was living at my house. My Aunt kicked a massive fuss the morning after his death saying he had promised her the dog etc, she went as far as calling round family and friends about it.
Considering this was about 18 hours after he died, I wasn't ready to let go of the dog at that point. I had sort of thought she could go to my aunts when I was ready, you know, when my dads body had a chance to go cold.
Anyway, my sister found out what my aunt had been doing & sent her a nasty message telling her to fuck off, that she isn't having the dog, that dad hated her etc. Aunt then sent some extremely nasty messages to me, all the day after my dad died. I blocked her & we haven't spoken since, until I received a mug in the post that my father had bought before he died that he had left in aunts car. I unblocked her to thank her.

It's weird because for about 2 weeks I have been considering contacting her & explaining that I think I'm now ready to hand over the dog, she has brought me comfort but realistically long term having a dog isn't something I wanted. I know my Aunt would be here in a flash. However, there is the matter of my sister; she will quite literally kill me. She already thinks I need to make it up to her for kicking her out. She made it clear that she didn't want our Aunt having the dog as she would never get to see her & is very attached to her.

How do I go about this? I've pretty much made my mind up, I think she would be a lot happier in a home that could take proper care of her & give her the attention she deserves. However it is just giving my sister more ammunition to use against me as she won't get to see the dog if she lives with our Aunt. Sister and Aunt hate each other and I have been in the middle for the entire time dad was unwell. I don't think my Aunt should have the dog because of the way she behaved but we all grieve differently & im sure she was directing her anger toward me instead of my sister.