January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Given how she is ask yourself why you would at all want to maintain low contact with her anyway, it’s really not worth it.

it Is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist. You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

@UnderwhelmedEnid toxic mum's have many ways to control their family fear, obligation, guilt and the big one money. If you are financially dependent on her she has the power in your relationship and knows it. She will be calling that debt in for the rest of your life, especially care in her old age.
Unless Iv misunderstood and she is financially dependent on you, in which case that is down to adult social services.
@Schneekugel passive aggressive is just a snidey way of saying 'fuck you' different words but the meaning is the same, it is meant to insult, unbalance, upset and cause drama.

I did not find grey rock any use, to me it felt superficial and fake, not good for my soul and hard work.

I’m not sending one she hasn’t spoken to me for 2 years I am no longer prepared to pretend there is a relationship when there isn’t one , an expecting an email from my dad telling me off next week ( am in my 50s!)

Place marker

Thanks so much for your replies. My son is very bright and got into a good school near us on a partial scholarship and she pays his fees

Thank you so much. Lots to think about but I just don't think it's possible. DS is only just at start of secondary school and she is paying for him for it all. I don't know if it's right to sacrifice his education for it. I agree NC is best but it's just not possible and I couldn't live with myself. I resent my siblings for getting out of the situation before me. She has created divisions between us all and we are no longer in touch because apparently I am not to be trusted. I just want an easy life

Absolutely...was looking in a few shops for a non emotional, fairly plain card with a suitable picture.
If the picture was good then the words weren't or vice versa!
Very half hearted about sending one.

passive aggressive is just a snidey way of saying 'fuck you' different words but the meaning is the same, it is meant to insult, unbalance, upset and cause drama.

Thanks Binkie. I had no idea! That puts a different spin on things.

I think I've been largely oblivious to it all because I'm not into drama myself, so I don't read into things and just take them at face value.

The narcissistic world seems very alien to me, the thought process, the actions, the needs/wants etc.

Even the language around it is confusing to me. I still don't know what narcissistic supply or hoovering is and there always seems to be lots of talk about that in anything related to narcissism. I sometimes think if I understand it better I could navigate life with a narcissist in it better. Eg if I knew what narcissistic supply was I could decide whether to give it or not. Then I think maybe it's not that simple because whatever it is might not be a fixed thing it might be changeable, depending on the person or circumstances perhaps. Other times I think it maybe doesn't matter if I understand it or not, maybe nothing will help because it does seem NC is the only solution, from what I've read/listened to.

I definitely received the Special Training you mentioned Atilla, but I've no idea how that came about or what the alternative should have been. Again, maybe it doesn't matter, the past can't be changed.

I've been having some very strange thoughts about the future. If I live my life in a manner of prioritising my health first and foremost - which I think is increasingly needing to be the case because I feel so battered by a relationship with narcissistic people - I'm not going to be able to both do that and do other things which others will be expecting me to do. Things they consider essential. They're not wrong. It's just that taking care of myself is equally essential. I live in another country. Returning to attend a sick-bed or for a funeral (or any reason at all) would be problematic. I can see myself losing everyone if I choose not to make myself unwell. This feels like a really messed up thought.

I've always just chosen a beautiful blank card and written whatever I feel comfortable with inside. Think this started decades ago as the official Mother's Day ones were so ott and tacky.

Yes Peonies lilac! I came to Thais conclusion in the end...it was one of those lightbulb moments 😅

@UnderwhelmedEnid unfortunately you are stuck with her, in your place I think I would put my sons school/education first. Try to find a way to manage mummy dearest.

@Schneekugel I also struggled to understand all the lingo.

I understand it like this:
supply=attention of any kind, at any cost from anybody. Good or bad, they will do anything to get it, children are easy targets.
Straight up narc will bully, buy, coerce and demand attention. Covert narcs suck up, act humble, very fake, passive aggressive, hand wringing, ingratiating.

Hoovering= anything to make you pick up the phone or mssg back, it is a 'HOOK' to get your attention to respond. Usually a drama, health drama, family member drama, fake concern for you. As soon as you respond they win, even telling them to feck off is a response, you blinked first.

Flying monkeys =(mothers little helpers) also used for hoovering, in my case my tearful enabler dad begging me to talk to mum, she will then snatch the phone and act like I phoned her! Siblings telling me how mean I am to mum, well meaning friends saying mum has called them worried about me!

The only way I found to deal with a narc is do as you are told, even faking it, half hearted, grey rock. However nothing you do will ever be enough, they always want more, demand more, cajole for more, more more. They wear you down.

The other way is NC the nuclear option and tbh that isnt easy either as they will hound you.

I think in simplest terms they want to control, attention, keep supply person upset, unbalanced, anxious & compliant. It is alien, it is not normal, a quiet life in a narcs orbit is not possible because NO is not possible.

e.g
'Mum I cant talk at the moment because I am at work'
Well this is important darling........(it never is) and off they go, oblivious and ignoring your boundaries. It would be laughable if it didnt damage us so badly. xx

@Schneekugel
I can see myself losing everyone if I choose not to make myself unwell.

common sayings that helped me:
Put on your own oxygen mask on first.
Do not set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm.
Self care not is selfish.
You cant pour from an empty cup.

A toxic person prioritizes their wants, needs & happiness over your happiness and health EVERY time.

Enid

re your comments in quote marks:
"Thank you so much. Lots to think about but I just don't think it's possible. DS is only just at start of secondary school and she is paying for him for it all".

Why has she been allowed to do this?. You are walking into a bear trap here of her very making. She could well be using him here to get back at you, to further try and steal his heart and mind by paying for such now or in future college tuition or driving lessons. She's not doing this for any altruistic based reasons, oh no, no, no. Its being done to get back at you and to make her look good, for she to be able to turn around to him and say, "look at what I did for you".

Such a grandparent simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the narcissist grandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family (as is the case here). They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them.

"I don't know if it's right to sacrifice his education for it".
If she is directly paying for private based schooling you would be better off removing him and having him in a state based system. At least both you and he will not be burdened/obligated by she paying his fees. If you really want him to stay then take over the financials concerning this yourself, at the very least you need to speak to his school re this matter.

"I agree NC is best but it's just not possible and I couldn't live with myself"
It is possible but hard and you will ultimately be able to live with yourself.

"I resent my siblings for getting out of the situation before me".
They got out before you yes, but that is no reason to resent them. They decided that they had had enough of your mother. Its hard being the last one left who bothers with her but really she is not worth bothering about.

"She has created divisions between us all and we are no longer in touch because apparently I am not to be trusted. I just want an easy life".
Many narcissists use the divide and conquer strategy on siblings and she created those divisions. If you indeed want an easier life, and I believe you do, you're going to have to drop the rope here she holds out to you.

Cutting off from your narcissist parent is a good thing. No need to act otherwise. Your children will sense it is a good thing by how you behave. Model how you want them to respond and it is likely they will imitate. Don't be afraid of their questions. Kids are amazingly resilient and well-equipped to handle truth. Parents are supposed to protect their progeny. If your child doesn't agree with how you go about that don't worry. They will often disagree with your decisions for their best interests. Nothing new there. It is your job as parent to make the tough decisions. If you know it is the right decision then proceed with confidence. Showing confidence is a quality of leadership. As a parent you are supposed to be a leader. Lead...and they will likely follow.

Most of all, do not operate from a fearful mindset. Don't be afraid of your child's possible, or actual, reactions. Don't be afraid that you are depriving them of something important by cutting off a grandparent. You are only "depriving" them of bad things. Reassure yourself with that truth. Family is not everything. Blood is not binding. You are escaping the Mob Family. What should connect us is how we treat each other with love and respect. This is always a good lesson to teach our little ones. If any part of you is unsure of your decision then, for Pete's sake, don't show it. Your resoluteness will go a long way toward reassuring your children that you are acting in everyone's best interest. If your children know that you love them, they are going to feel reassured that this decision is also based in your love for them. They will find an added sense of security to know that you, as their parent, are willing to protect them even at the cost of your relationship with your own parent(s). Rather than being fearful, see the plentiful opportunities in this. You are protecting your child from someone whom you've experienced as being abusive; you are reassuring your child that you are in charge and are watchful for their best interests (creates deep sense of security); you can teach healthy family values which include that family doesn't get a pass for abusive behaviour; you can strengthen and reinforce the healthy relationships in your extended family. Kids are less likely to feel like there is a void in their life if you fill it with good things.

Hello my fellow stately homes victims.

Want to wish us all a happy mothers day whether we are mothers ourselves or have just plainly managed not to kill our own ones over the years!

Mine caused yet more shit for me yesterday so it just reconfirms that I will not acknowledge her today. I am off out with a friend and our kids cos shes NC with her mother too.

Hope today is not too hard x

Sending everyone love today. It's a hard day for many. Xxx

Thanks.

I sent mine a card. After some years of NC we are in a new phase of 'let's pretend everything's fine' on the rare times we have to see each other.

Its all fake - I feel nothing.

Mother's Day passed me by.. I only realised yesterday, by which point it was too late to send a card. I don't mind sending a birthday or Christmas card to save upset feelings but I resent sending one for MDay because she's never been a mother to me.

I will send a text later but even a text feels wrong. All she did was take a bright child curious about the world and turn them into an anxious and depressed mess. It was me who had to mother her throughout my childhood. I only existed to serve her needs. And she still doesn't give a F about me or anything going on in my life.

Wishing everyone happy survival day.

I’m missing having a mother that can hold me, hug me, wipe my tears and have a cup of tea with me. She’s alive and well and less than a mile away. But no message from her. 3 rd mother day of silence, from her. I miss her or rather the person I want to have.

As for her she will be be moaning and angry she hasn’t had a card from me or saying 2/3 cards or whatever isn’t too bad. Yet refuse to acknowledge me as a daughter and her grandchildren.

m Hands are itching to say …. Something and I’m sitting on them

Sending hugs to those that need them xx

For the 1st time in 10 years, mum is at my siblings' house today for mothers day

It's bloody marvellous 😀

Got a cars with heartfelt messages written by by dc and some chocolate and lovely flowers 💐 💙

Now...if I could sleep past 5am that would be awesome 👌

Today my sister told me she had a dream that I apologised to her for kicking her out when she had nowhere to go.

I hung up.

For those that don't know the story - when my dad got diagnosed with cancer he moved back to England to live with me. My sister also moved in.

I remember feeling like I was going crazy, that I was the problem. I would cry every morning and evening. They took the piss & told me it was my problem, that they are family, of course I should do everything for them for them to just slag me off behind my back.

My sister was highly triggering, to the point she would make me feel anxious and panicky. So I kicked her out.

I'm sorry your family treated you so badly, @JellyWellyBoots , but I must admit I laughed aloud at your sister's 'dream' and punched the air at your excellent reaction!

😄✊

On that note, though, isn't it empowering when we wake up to the patterns? So when they pull their stunts, we can clearly see what they're trying to do, and regard it at some David Attenborough, animal behaviour level... The links in this thread are really helpful for that. 🙂

Anton

I would not bother sending such a text message this late in the day either given how she has behaved towards you. Same with birthday/ Christmas cards - stop sending these too. It’s a waste of time and effort and achieves nothing good. It just keeps you further obligated to a mother who has been and remains no mother to you. I would read about narcissistic personality disorder re your mother and see how much of this fits with your experience of her.

You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

Thanks Binkie, that makes a bit more sense of what's going on. I think I have a flying monkey in the mix too. They really are messed up aren't they. If I wanted more attention I'd go meet new people, be nice to them, make friends and hang out having fun. I think that's normal behaviour. But narcissist tries to fill an empty hole inside them by getting any attention, even negative attention, by being nasty to people. Who knows why.

Jelly kicking your sister out was totally understandable and I don't blame you for hanging up.

I'm glad you had a good day User and your toxic family didn't detract from you enjoying mother's day with the family you created.

IAAP I expect you can't right now but I'm going to recommend moving far away, when you can. This is because, for me, knowing people can't visit has freed me from the hurt of them choosing not to. If you create a situation where they realistically can't visit, it won't be in the back of your mind that they might drop by one day, accompanied by an almost constant low level disappointment that they haven't. It's made a huge difference to my peace of mind.

Anton that was always my issue with the cards too. "To a wonderful mum" - nope! And inside "we'll always have a close bond, you'll always be my number one" or some such nonsense - nope, again!

ToBed, fake is how I feel now, too. The love is gone. I feel more warmth towards an acquaintance I've only just met, because although I don't know them, they have the potential to turn out to be a good person. I already know how the parent turned out.

Thanks Monkey. Hope the death related stuff isn't taking too long.

Hope you enjoyed your day with your friend Genuinewedding.

Enid there's academic intelligence/education and emotional intelligence/education. Prioritising the former whilst simultaneously destroying the latter doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather a DC had slightly less academic opportunities but grew up a well rounded, decent and undamaged human being, with empathy and compassion for others. I agree with Atilla regarding the schooling.