January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@placemats do what you think you need to do for YOUR mental health and what will help you heal and fuck the rest of them. I am Irish and living in Ireland not the North but yes we do celebrate the life the dead person lived instead of grieving for the life they have left which is why it is incredibly hard if you have had a bad relationship with that person or the others at the funeral celebration.

@MonkeyfromManchester I know your funeral is an Irish one too so I know you will feel a hypocrite celebrating her life but remember inside you you are celebrating the bitches death ;)

I have so many things I want to say to so many other threads and posters but currently going through a few things myself mentally but thinking of all who are having a bad time. I would rather not give advice while feeling so raw as it would be from a personal perspective which currently is not a good one. x

I think I am expecting repercussions - the vulnerable relative I mentioned has dementia and I want to still be able to visit them without putting myself or my children at risk. They love seeing my kids so trying to do that is difficult while avoiding my mother completely. I've read some of the books - might order a couple more though to help me process the whole thing.

For instance, my uncle is visiting the relative next weekend. My mum has already indicated she intends to be there on the family chat. My husband and I don't know whether to miss out in seeing them or go minus the children and leave if necessary.

I think I'm struggling with it given birth if a new baby is when you want your mum most...and my mum is busy telling the whole family I'm using the children as weapons against her.

alcoholicmum243

re your comment
"For instance, my uncle is visiting the relative next weekend. My mum has already indicated she intends to be there on the family chat. My husband and I don't know whether to miss out in seeing them or go minus the children and leave if necessary".

What is the purpose of your uncle's visit to this relative?. Does he remain unaware of what happened to you in your childhood and adulthood?. Abuse also thrives on secrecy. I would hope that not all your relatives believe your mother's tales as she is likely to be always on a comedown from alcohol and is never actually sober.

I would not go anywhere near your mother given how both abusive and otherwise drunk she is. A family chat is not going to go at all well here and I would duck out of this whole dynamic entirely leaving them to it. You be the one who breaks the cycle here. With you out of the picture these people will likely further turn against each other.

Ultimately you're going to have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

They are visiting as they haven't seen them in a few weeks. I appreciate the irony of this statement but we are a 'close' family and see each other often. They are not unaware and always agreed how difficult my mother is - the rest of the family just puts up with it for an easy life. She wasn't drunk when the last argument and assault happened.

I think you are probably right; I'm resentful of missing the family gathering given we haven't done anything wrong, if that makes sense. I probably just need to accept that if they want to see us, the uncle needs to make the effort to see us separately.

I've been reading the daughters of narcissistic mothers page and that's summarising my experience quite well. Although she is a functioning alcoholic, the majority of the issues come from her rages, refusal to hear 'no' and punishing anyone who disagrees with her. She is very intimidating. I don't go near her in the evenings when she drinks so the alcohol doesn't affect me massively anymore; the last few years at Christmas, we have deliberately ensured she has no access to alcohol to limit the fallout. I've accepted I can't stop her drinking. She manages to be unpredictable and nasty enough without it however, hence the NC.

Thanks for responding to me - this is still very early days for us with the NC and it's still sinking in that we are doing the right thing and we shouldn't just forgive and move on.

Forgiving and moving on doesn't solve the problem at all. It's just kicking the can down the road. I stay in contact purely because of my mother.

It's difficult to say this, but I will be very relieved when she finally dies, despite the fact that I love her dearly. It will mean that I get the agency to go no contact with my awful siblings.

@alcoholicmum243 I too am the adult daughter of an alcoholic mother. There are a lot of us on this thread.
Alcoholics take no responsibility or accountability for their actions it is always something or someone else's fault. In your mother's mind, her assaulting you was your fault!
They lie about the smallest thing, they are never 'just late' there is always some huge drama to hold center stage and over explain some bolloxs, usually looking for attention and sympathy, while judging others and giving unsolicited advice when they can't even get their own shit together.
I went NC I found the first 2 months awkward but then realized how peaceful it was, I no longer had to waste energy, time, headspace or emotion on the bullshit. Never again had to listen to excuses and justifications for shit behavior.
We can't undo the damage done by the alcoholic but we can walk away to put an end to it. It gets easier, life gets better. I was very honest with friends and extended family why I went NC to stop anyone trying to be a peace maker, God bless the flying monkeys!
Edit: my mum died few months ago it was a relief, I didn't go to the funeral and I am still NC with siblings.

@binkie163 @placemats Thank you for that.

I think that will be true of my relative with dementia. I adore them but I will be free of the pressure to see my mother.

I'm in month 1 so maybe I just need to make it another few months to appreciate the freedom!

@alcoholicmum243 my mum eventually got sober in her 60's, went cold turkey, joined AA, we all supported her.
After a few years of sobriety, my mum was just as selfish, manipulative and demanding. My childhood was not nice, I left home at 17 but she expected me to care for her when old and frail 😂 deluded and entitled!

*[sobriety means from your last drink, relapses are drinking, it isn't a year if you have had alcohol within that year] in case anyone is unsure what sobriety means.

@placemats I have not forgiven, I'm not there yet. I am no longer controlled by intrusive thoughts or sadness but I am still triggered occasionally, I am a work in progress.

I'm not sure if I can ever forgive or forget @binkie163

However I know that I will be free from them. That's pure relief. I am well aware that the toxic side effects will continue for the rest of my life.

I do have my lovely children and good friends as support. Edited for the last sentence.

I went NC I found the first 2 months awkward but then realized how peaceful it was, I no longer had to waste energy, time, headspace or emotion on the bullshit

Agree fully with this @binkie163

It's a glorious sense of peace now.

I absolutely love it.

I only got triggered (if you like) when my older sister's husband died just before Christmas. The wider family were informed and my DS told me. I was horrified when my younger sister actually phoned me from an unknown number. The cheek of it!

I blocked the number as soon as I realised it was her. But not before she sent me a text, "hoping I was happy" and if you knew her, you'd know how PA this was.

I still can't explain to this thread what my sisters did to me. It's so hard.
Maybe I'll get there. But not yet.

@TheShellBeach
I kept/keep my memories/feelings firmly locked in a box. I never wanted to dwell on my childhood.
When I went NC it was like everything was unleashed, all the bad stuff hit me like a tsunami. I had a 2 month purge of tears, hurt, anger and left it there. I cant undo what happened but I have been very successful in adult life/career/marriage/good friends so I count my blessings.
I dont think you can force facing the shit or sharing it, it is very personal, it isnt comfortable. However it can come out when you least expect it. I can still be triggered by people who remind me of my mum. There is no right way, we just do the best we can xxx

Mother's day. I don't want to do it.

You could make a pinata and beat the shit out of it with sticks. More a mother fucker day 😀

My mother lives in Australia and it's celebrated on a different date there.

I ignore both.

I wasn't expecting it - she hit us when we were kids on occasion but emotional and verbal abuse was very much her style.

Alcoholic mum When you were kids you had no control over your own lives and no real ability to truly stand up for yourselves. Now you have and you did. When verbal and emotional abuse doesn't work any more, an escalation to physical abuse often comes next.

Did you report her? The carers would have heard even if they didn't see. Shutting the door first proves it wasn't a heat of the moment thing either, it was cold and calculated. I would not even let her have supervised contact with your children. How long before something distracts you for a second and she takes her chance to do or say something unseen or heard by you?

If you can't go NC with someone who's assaulted you, when can you?

The sooner Mother's Day is over the better.

We didn't report her at the time but I'vr told the manager since and asked for adjustments to see my relative in the communal space in sight of the doors/the office. I'm also being escorted where possible by my husband or brother to see them, just for backup and a witness.

At the moment we are no access to the children. If we did see her today, we wouldn't take the children. I'm not to take the children into the care home.

I don't have to know her, I can just imagine how PA it was... it's exactly the sort of emotionally void thing they all say to manipulate.

You don't have to explain until if/when you're ready, I'm sure lots of us can identify and understand anyway. 🤗

Sending support and solidarity to everyone who will be sitting through Mothers' Day with gritted teeth... the ones who can't find a M Day card that's suitable (if you still do them) because they're all aimed at the nice and lovely mothers that other people got...

💐

@Genuineweddingone it sounds like you're having a tough time, sorry to hear that. Hope things soon get better for you. 🙂

Can I join the chat? Struggling a bit with DM. For many reasons she isn't in touch with all of her family (classic narcissist, can't get on with anyone etc) shes divorced from my DH, siblings have NC with her. I'm the youngest of 4 and I'm all she has. She doesn't have many friends and not many hobbies and she is in her late 70s.
She is extremely difficult and we've got ourselves into the sticky rut of being financially dependent in someways. Extricating myself would not be in the best interest of my DS.
I've tried to go LC but she ignores it. I try to give minimal info but she is constantly probing and it is very hard. Any info she doesn't get from me she probes my DC.
I would love any advice on how to maintain LC with someone who just ignores all the obvious signs.

Enid like you I'm finding LC doesn't really work due to the incessant manipulation and probing for information.

I've just found an explanation of grey rock that I can actually understand on one of Dr Ramanis YouTube videos and it's what I've been doing for years. So that's not going to fix anything for me.

Compash yes to the mother's day cards, it's a headache trying to find a plain one. I decided not to this year, after the last argument I didn't feel like it. I'm going to send a text instead.

Does anyone have an explanation for the passive aggressive comments? Is it to hurt? To get a response? Or something else? I don't understand why they do it.

UnderwhelmedEnid

it is hard being likely the last one left who actually bothers with your mother but she is really not worth bothering with in the long run. You likely stay in touch because she instilled the fear, obligation and guilt buttons in you. You’ve also received the Special Training to put her first with your needs and wants dead last. It’s not your doing she has no friends, there is bloody good reason why that is the case. If she is too difficult/toxic etc for you to deal with, it’s the same deal for your child too.

Would you tolerate what she does to you and your child from a friend?.

i would urge you to further reduce contact down to zero sum. If you do communicate keep it brief and put her on a strict information diet. It would actually be in your DSs interests also to reduce contact with her as well because he supplies her with lots of narcissistic supply. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed, she’s now also a poor grandparent example. She needs to be blocked from your son’s phone, she is manipulating him.