January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I would imagine that the first thing your psychiatrist will want you to tackle would be your alcoholism - until that is under better control trying to deal with the problems of your family/career would add too much stress and make you more likely to fall off the wagon.

I'm so sorry that so many of us are struggling atm:(

My voluntary role is coming to an end far sooner than I planned
..I'm leaving due to a safeguarding issue that I'm very unhappy about

I feel so sad and angry about it

@mm I'll be thinking of you on 13th xx

@FreeRider and also others- many thanks for the advice. I have been engaging with services for the alcohol and have been almost entirely sober for a very long period of time - I don't count days but over a year. However, I have had a few lapses during that time often due to extremely stressful events here, and I also have a lot more alcohol on my record because my mother will often take doctors aside vastly to exaggerate the amount I drink or to say I've been drinking when I haven't to people like my doctor, psychiatrist etc. On my most recent admission, I was given Librium twice before the doctors did the CIWA test (to see if you need Librium), got my blood results back and determined that I was very unlikely to be withdrawing, being in fact completely sober. The admission before that I had had a minor lapse but had no withdrawals at all, and the admission was recorded as being for acute alcohol intoxication when actually it was because I was suicidal and so malnourished I couldn't stand. I think that's why my mother went beserk when the doctor suggested a taxi as an alternative to a lift, because she would be less able to control the narrative.

Also, it is very hard to stay sober when my mother is at the very least a dependent drinker and a very nasty drunk at that and when there's always loads of alcohol in the house, there is no difference in my life when I'm sober or have been drinking, and some types of help are so difficult to access as to be hopelessly impossible. I should have been assessed as a priority for my eating disorder a month ago but have now been discharged and will not be considered even for the waiting list for an assessment until I have a year's continuous sobriety. Without help for my eating disorder I very much doubt I have another year in me, drink or no drink. Likewise with most hostels - even a history of drinking makes it a lot harder to get into them.

However, drinking is almost as much a feature of victims of DV as it is perpetrators. I was on a ward this time with someone who had done a lot of work on DV with the CPS and she said she thought I and one of the other patients looked like a lot of the claimants/victims she'd worked with and recognised our interactions with our visitors (my father, her husband). She said when she started needing treatment for her liver complaint - we were on a hepatology ward - she was astounded by the representation of victims of all sorts of crimes on liver damage wards as a result of alcoholism, as she was expecting many more perpetrators.

I've been missing Velvet so much for the past five days and came back (yes, back, it all came to nothing unfortunately) to a freezing cold, empty house with Velvet snuggled up with my mother in a nice warm room. Apparently because my mother chose her and fetched her from the refuge she is her cat, even though Velvet's basically lived in my room for the past four months.

So you're back at home, Cecile?

Cecile sorry if this has already been suggested, I know you've been around a lot longer than me and mentioned in another post that you've tried various things. But have you contacted women's aid? It doesn't matter who your abuser is, it doesn't have to be your spouse. You're being financially abused as well as the rest of it and it's preventing you from living an independent life and leaving your parents home. They could help you figure out how to leave, even if they can't offer you a refuge place. They can help with the overcoming the gaslighting too.

This

@tonewbeginnings Definitely ❤Although I choose solitary activities like yoga, gardening, walking and reading.
This mornings salute to the sun was enhanced by my dogs joining in, extensive face wash during cobra & downward dog poses!
I saw a good quote on another thread 'stop being a passenger in your life, if you allow someone else to drive do not complain about the direction'
Like 'drop the rope' its so obvious once you do it but you know what they say about hindsight.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau

Sorry if I am asking questions you have explained further up thread, but filtering for them is a premium feature of MN, which I don't have.

How old are you? Do you have any support outside your abusers? Do you have any money to exit with? They seem to have broken you so you remain dependent on them, is that something you identify with?

This is my first post here.

My mother is dying and she lives in Northern Ireland. I live in England. I love her dearly but the problem lies with my siblings. So much toxicity I can't even begin to start.

Basically she was abused physically by my father and we all, 8 of us, witnessed this. He also physically and sexually abused his children.

He died over 22 years ago. And we all celebrated his death.

My family is refusing to let me speak to my mother. They cannot cope with her care needs. I'm in despair. They see me as a dogsbody who will attend when it suits them.

I'm of a mind to go completely no contact and not attend the funeral, even though my mum and I have often talked about it during my very frequent visits to her.

I've let them know her wishes but I can't bear to be with them at the funeral.

I can fly in and out on the day to pay my last respects to her. Everyone else thinks she should have done more to leave my dad and I always stood up for her. I cannot abide hypocrisy.

Should I just have a celebratory dinner with my children on the day of her funeral? They know the full story.

Oh the Irish celebrate the dead. We do also feel very sad. So when I say celebrations I mean a Mass. My mother is a Catholic.

@placemats I'm so sorry. What a dreadful situation and I'm so sorry about the hideous history connected with this. I think you have to act in your personal interest - fly in and out and pay your respects to your mum. Are your kids old enough to go with you or is there a sane relative you can be with?

I've got an Irish funeral next Weds for my hideous mother in law. Dreading it.

My children are all adults so we could all fly in and fly out.

But the general feedback is they don't want to.

I'd be going on my own.

Good luck with that funeral. @MonkeyfromManchester

Thanks for your response x

Fair enough on your children being clear - you’ve obviously brought them up to be sane. Your siblings on the other hand…

I think you need to weigh up your love for your mother and your well-being. Why are they blocking you? I'd bet there is dirty cash involved. Is that why they are keeping you away?

I'm just glad I'm not sorting out all the death admin for Mr Monkey’s vile mother. He's exhausted by it. Left to get on with it solo by his brothers…

@placemats you have to do what feels right for you. Would you be able to avoid family? Funerals don't always bring out the best in people. A big family bust up is not the memory you want to be left with.

I think a celebratory dinner sounds a fitting farewell to share fond memories.
It is also the ideal time to go no contact with the others.

I've helped my mother out before, she was crying down the phone to ask for help 😔 so of course I did.

My siblings are performing artists and don't give a shit. They can't cope without subservient help.

I do feel for your partner.

I agree. I would be incredibly uncomfortable attending her funeral.

@placemats then probably better not to go. Emotionally charged situations can get unpleasant really quickly. Iv always thought alcohol and funerals a bad mix, all the old arguments and recriminations come to the surface in the closest families, a recipe for disaster in dysfunctional families.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau
Ive not got a lot of alcoholism knowledge but is it possible to get yourself into complete recovery programme and a long term accommodation completely away from your parents and any other drinkers?

Eg a friend who is willing to provide accommodation with no drinking or a sponsor. Or is that a pipe dream.

it sounds like cause and effect and they aren’t helpful to your recovery?

as other poster said womens aid is for anyone on an abusive situation

None of us drink anymore.

Long time lurker, found my way here a while ago as I'm currently treading the first steps of NC. Finding it really hard as maintaining the boundary means I can't see other relatives. Trying to go NC to break the cycle for my 2 small DC. Also dealing with the guilt - the rest of the family all say they empathise and have never found a solution themselves so don't know what to say but there is a culture of 'that's just how she is'.

Trying to deal with the lack of acknowledgement and apologies for her assault on me which was very much along the lines of 'it was unacceptable but you are...' and more abuse through email to justify actions.

Just finding it really hard. Thinking of all of you dealing with similar, hope it's okay to post.

Death admin sucks @mm
I did all my dad's
Exhausting :(

I think I'm resigning from a long term voluntary role... I feel oddly calm but very sad

Welcome, @alcoholicmum243. Of course it's OK to post!

Your mothers is an alcoholic? Do you want talk about the assault?

You're right - it's all very hard. 💙

She is a high functioning alcoholic but she also has huge issues with control and punishes anyone who disagrees. We stopped her access for childcare after two instances of her turning up drunk still from the night before. We'd given her chances as she seemed to have improved slightly since a big life change for her 5 years ago. Tbf as anticipated, she had been fine with our child up to that point - she has the capability to be good but it's sad to see her be less than she can be.

Her reaction to us saying supervised only was fury, accusations, pure rage. I hadn't spoken to her in nearly a month and then bumped into her visiting a vulnerable relative. Over the next ten minutes, she shut the door so the carers couldnt see, screamed at me that our accusations of her being drunk were lies and then hit me round the head twice. I was 6 months pregnant at the time.

I wasn't expecting it - she hit us when we were kids on occasion but emotional and verbal abuse was very much her style.

I just don't know where to go from here other than NC, @PeoniesLilac but it's really hard. The rest of the family are supportive but don't want to stand against her, they just say 'I can't think of a solution'.

That's absolutely horrific, @alcoholicmum243. I agree, there is no way forward except for NC.

You sound as though you are expecting repercussions for that? From her or wider family? Or your own feelings of guilt that you mentioned?

You absolutely don't need validation from your family that this is the right thing to do. It might be reassuring but you don't need it, and they sound craven.

It might be easier than are fearing. Have you read some of the resources in the first post?

alcoholicmum243

She’s previously been abusive towards you in childhood and she has not changed in all these years since.

It’s not the wider family’s job to find a solution for the alcoholic so their mindset here is flawed. The only person who can choose to address her drinking is your mother and she is also showing no indication of wanting to do so. She could also go onto lose everything and everyone around her and she could still chooses to drink afterwards.