January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

I wonder if the golden, chosen children are the ones who mirror the parent the most and are a shining reflection of them?

In my family this is true Binkie. Maybe not quite as bad but basically a mini-me of the parent.

@Schneekugel yes true in my family for my mums mini me, she made no secret who her favorite was. Strangely if you had asked me 5 years ago who was my dad's favorite, I would have said me with no hesitation. However that was based on my skewed perception and my dad's sneaky manipulations. It is hard to come to terms with and certainly strips the pretense away but I would rather know the truth than waste further kindness on someone who doesn't deserve it.

I believe my golden child sister is a mirror image of our mother. Discovering that was so disturbing. I feel like I grew up totally surrounded by dysfunction, including friends. It’s a hard journey.

My golden child probable narc brother is more overt than my mum. She acts very charming and controlled on the surface but my brother has very little charm and acts in a very grumpy, entitled and opinionated way. He's never held down relationships or friendships in his adult life. My mum also never made a secret on who was favourite and this escalated when I reached my teens, when I had the audacity to form my own personality. My kids are reaching the age I was when things took a sinister turn, it's brought a lot of memories back and there's a lot of emotional work to do.

Evening to you all. I have had a very rough couple of days. I have been low contact for six weeks with my dparents (due to dm manipulation and mood swings and I could go on and on)
she asked me not to visit Christmas Eve with a silly excuse and then when we left she said my brother had to go to bed as it hurt him as he is separated and seeing me with my kids there was too much (so you get the drift). I take her out for a meal and gave her 100 to spend and she still pouts and moans and criticises. Then I sent photos of a happy weekend away and no response. So I just pulled back. No row

however father in law died and they came to the funeral and shook hands but would nt with me .. all I got was a dirty look & they stayed by the graveside to ‘see the grandkids’ after ignoring me (at this stage I jumped into another car with the kids. But I can’t believe they put dh in situation after burying his dad 😢

@Ewoklady that sounds really hard, please be good to yourself 💐
They love to be miserable and make every situation about themselves xx

I’ve lurked for a while and think people here might understand my predicament.

My father is emotionally abusive. I strongly suspect he’s a narcissist but don’t have any professional knowledge to diagnose. I’ve always been the scapegoat. I checked out emotionally as a teenager, I’d have very happily gone no contact at that point. I’ve maintained contact for years because he controls the rest of the family, they are all very codependent. I am the only one of the now all adult children who has moved away and has financial and emotional independence. I live in a different part of the country.

I’m pregnant with my first child and single, there will not be another person involved in any way with the child.

Stupidly, I thought maybe I’d get some sort of nice reaction to the pregnancy from him, but the response was that he increased the abuse. Repeatedly said I will be an awful mother, said he hopes the baby gets seriously ill, constantly told me how awful having children is and how he gained nothing and no joy from having children. There was loads more but too much to type out here! This was when I was at his house for a couple of days over Christmas, and at that point I decided to go no contact for the sake of the baby as I want the cycle to stop here (in the family his behaviour is generally excused on the basis that he had an awful childhood).

i am now feeling a bit isolated. I don’t have many friends with children. I can’t relate much to the other pregnant women I’ve met. I don’t know how I am going to afford full time childcare when I go back to work. My father is making contact with my mother very difficult.

The easiest thing would be to move back to my hometown and resume contact with my father. I’d get my mother and sisters back and just put up with him. The problem is I don’t want my child being exposed to any of his behaviour and growing up thinking it’s normal. I don’t know whether that is preferable to having the child with no support system. I know all the comments about ‘it’s not a support system it’s a toxic system’, which i understand. Practically, do you think I can have this child totally alone? Can i give birth alone? I’ve got no one to talk to about the baby or the pregnancy, obviously I can talk to my friends, but it’s not the same as my mum and sisters. I just want what is best for the baby.

Cherry .. congratulations on your pregnancy. Going home is not the safe or right option here. I think you can make this work. You meet more of new mums at baby groups and you can make things work financially. Make sure to buy clothes on vinted and Facebook marketplace. You can do this !! I don’t know that financial support there is but anything is better than going back to that nasty abuse.

@Cherrywinter like you said it’s important to break the cycle not just for your new child’s wellbeing but also yours.

You need support though - could you hire a doula for your pregnancy and postnatal support?

@Cherrywinter, congratulations.

Your father is piling on the pressure because he can see you have the upper hand. He doesn't like it.

It's quite normal not to bond with other pregnant women. You may well do better at mother and child groups after, with a bigger range of parents.

There's plenty of mothers in the same situation or similar. I'm sure you will be fine. And you will have us too.

The wider Mumsnet community is brilliant for helping. Especially with kids.

@Cherrywinter it must be quite scary going it alone. What sort of support would you be hoping for from mum & sisters?
They choose to stay emotionally and financially dependent on your father, they chose to be infantilized. I'm not sure what constructive support they can give you, only what/when your father allows.
Pregnancy friends don't have to be for life but will help you through this phase of life, you already have something in common.
You won't be 'putting up' with dad, he will be in charge. He makes contact with mum difficult, why do you think that will change?
Your dad hoping the baby gets seriously ill is pure nastiness.
Start building independent support online and IRL. Everyone feels isolation and loneliness at times in life, especially us scapegoats.

Hi, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I have name changed for this.

I used to post a few years ago but then went NC with father and got loads of counselling, and as my name suggests, I was doing OK.

Until today. Someone recently told me he'd been ill and in hospital. I didn't ask any more questions, I find the less I know the better.

This morning in the course of my work I opened up an email of an event which took place at the weekend and there he is, in the background of one of the photographs. He looks awful, nearly jaundiced and old. Its definitely him as he's still wearing the same style of clothes he's always worn.

I haven't had contact in 7 years. He abused me and my siblings for decades. Sexual abuse, mental abuse and for my brothers, it was physical and mental abuse.

When one of my sisters disclosed to my brothers, they were very supportive, apart from one, but I don't blame him, it must have been a huge shock for him.

And despite me being keen to press charges, realistically he's in his 80s now, we're all late 40s -60s. By the time it would get to court the old bastard would be dead.

Anyway, seeing his photo actually made my heart hammer. Not in fear or anger, but the part of me that's a good person feels a bit sorry for him. He's an evil man, we've been through the mill as siblings and much as I don't want to make contact with him, I was shocked at how old and sick looking he is.

None of us have any contact with him and also in the background of the photo are two of his siblings and a niece so he's certainly not alone - I don't even know why I am posting this message. I just feel torn, sick, sad.. I do not want contact with him, but why do I almost feel sorry for him?

@Iwasdoingok you are reacting like that because you care.

Doesn't mean you should get back in touch. I haven't spoken to my father in 7 years.

I still hope he's not struggling with illness.

But I'd never get back in touch.

How is he connected to your job? Is there a chance you might come into contact with him?

I'd reach out to your line manager/HR if you need to.

@Iwasdoingok Sorry to hear things are being brought up for you again. (Had this happen for me in last couple of days). I wonder if it's not so much that you're almost feeling sorry for him, as there's still some of that grief there, that he was never, and never will be, the father you deserved? And give yourself some appreciation, that after all the horrific abuse you've suffered, you're a kind person.

No, I definitely won't have to have contact with him.

Think of my job as similar to putting together a community newsletter of events that have taken place, hence being sent photographs.

The area the event was held is an area I would cover in the newsletter, but it's not where he actually lives, so hopefully it's unlikely I'll have to deal with it often.

I will never get back in touch, in fact I have recently went through solicitors to try to stop him visiting a close relative in a care home due to his abusive past, but apparently that can't be done (they've put steps in place but not steps I am happy with. I believe he is a danger to my vulnerable relative)

I'm having a really hard time today. It was my uncle's funeral last week, he was married to my "mother's" sister. I couldn't go as I've been ostracised and I know there are some family members who wouldn't hesitate to attack me publicly.

The original thing that tipped me beyond being able to deal with my "mother" was when she said "If you were a proper mother I'd have a better relationship with my grandchildren" (that she never minded, helped with, supported or praised).

My one kind cousin who speaks to me met up with me after the funeral. She said my aunt was bemoaning the fact that I wasn't at the funeral, and in a discussion between her, my kind cousin, and another cousin who has cut me off, it transpired that my mother said that I said what she said. Obviously they think it's a terrible thing to say, so bad that they have shunned me for 2 1/2 years.
But I didn't say it! I don't want them back in my life, they have shown who they are that they didn't even try to find out the truth. But it really hurts that this woman, my adoptive "mother", is crying victim and getting sympathy for the fact that she "misses me so much", while having people think I'm the one who did a horrible thing and won't apologise.

My uncle died believing this. How horrible.

I know about DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender), but even though I knew there had been a smear campaign, I never thought she'd go so far as to completely 100% lie. I'd been doing well, haven't seen my therapist for a couple of months, but this has set me right back.

I’m not sure what I’m looking for with this post as I know the situation can’t change.

My Mum shows some narcissist behaviour whether she’d be diagnosed as NPD I’m not sure. I have always been her target, I get constant anger and hatred from her unless we’re in the company of others where she’s all smiles and kindness. It’s a hideous existence to be honest like living with your worst enemy. I am able to move out in the next few months so I know this situation isn’t forever.

Her father was the same way and I know she didn’t have an easy childhood, it seems a lot of the time she’s copying the behaviour he showed. What I’m particularly struggling with at the minute is her nasty behaviour has started on a couple of others. They don’t know what she’s really like so they are quite confused. I try and deflect as much as possible but it’s getting harder. It was her birthday last week and she threw my gifts out and told me her birthday was wrecked because of me and others. She blames everyone else for everything and she spent the day angry and crying. I find her distress hard as even with her behaviour I love her and wish she was happy.

It took a long time for me to realise she had a problem, I grew up thinking everything was my fault and I was the issue, still do sometimes. I have been looking at some of the resources mentioned in these threads to help. If I ‘grey rock’ it makes her so angry, I don’t really show her any signs of affection and sometimes find I treat her like she does me which is so wrong. It’s almost like I can’t take any more from her and have disengaged myself to a certain extent. This must make her feel even worse though as she feels no one loves or cares for her. It’s like a vicious circle I can’t change.

I’ve tried to fix it numerous times, but it never works as I always end up saying something wrong that sets her off. I do know it can’t be fixed but sometimes I get a glimmer of a normal mum and daughter relationship and keep thinking it’s possible.

Sorry I’m rambling, usually I can cope but I’m having a few bad days

@User985018 if you block her, you won't know that she's angry.

@User985018 grit your teeth till you move out. It's not your fault no one cares about her, it's her fault/behavior. Once you are out you can start to heal and get some distance. I think we always hope things will be different 'this' time, just to be disappointed again.
@Escapingafter50years she is an absolute shit. I found people went along with my mum, they knew she was lying but couldn't be bothered with the aggro, it's just easier to placate.
@Iwasdoingok we can choose our friends but not our family, we can only stay away from them. Our sympathy comes from a good place it is wasted on them.

To everyone struggling today, there is life and happiness away from our batshit families x

I was told to read this thread when I first discovered Mumsnet over a year ago, but because it's so long it's taken until today to post.

However, after a lot of therapy, reading and watching videos on Narcissistic parents I've gone No Contact. I've tried understanding, disecting, remembering all the things that led to this decision, but its a futile process, retraumatising and totally useless to me. So this is my final thought. They make me feel awful and I feel better being no contact and thats all I need to understand and know. I OWE THEM NOTHING. I am done. I will not spend another minute trying to understand them. I will focus completely on building my self back up and following my own path. That is called done. I totally recommend it guys.

@NamechangedtotellyouImfreeasabird
Amen to that.

Thanks @binkie163 I think I'm still in shock. I keep realising more things, this evening it dawned on me that she looks like a bloody angel to them, they think I said this horrible thing (that she said), and even still she appears to them to be willing to forgive me and she misses me so much, and they're running around comforting her. She's literally swamped in narc supply, utter heaven for her.

@User985018 I wouldn't worry too much whether she'd meet the exact definition of narcissist or not, the behaviour is enough in itself to justify you protecting yourself. She sounds a bit similar to mine in that she's sweetness and light to others but disgusting to her daughter - maybe read up a bit on covert narcissism which I believe is the worst type of narcissism. Lucky us :(

Childhood trauma may well have made her this way (same for mine), but it's her responsibility to fix, not yours. I see she's now showing her true colours to some other people (mine was very very careful, none of the family saw it, her doctor who couldn't tell anyone saw it). Interesting that you say you deflect when she starts this, why do you protect her? I say this because I spent my life pretending my bitch of a "mother" was kind and normal, but this backfired hugely - she got worse and worse, said something so horrendous to me that I had to step back from her, and now she's the victim, blaming me for what she actually did - and because I covered for her for so long, people have believed her.

That glimmer of a relationship you see? I'm afraid it's a mirage, it can't happen. I'm so sorry, it's hell. Certainly I wish I'd cut her off decades ago, she's only brought stress and grief into my life. I did my best but it was never enough.
Have you got someone you can trust to talk about this with? You can't change this vicious circle you mention - it's time to look after yourself.

Quick shocked update from me before I rush out of the house. I'll be back later to repky to our courageous group.

Fucking hell. Update from Monkey Towers.

The secret and lies are really emerging about The Hag (recently deceased toxic as f**k mother in law) Apparently, Slave Son (Mr Monkey’s half brother who was the Hag’s de facto servant) had his mother, who died of cancer when he was five or so, completely erased from history. Mr Monkey didn't know Slave Son was his half brother until he was 14. All these wedding photos of MM’s dad with his first wife were MM’s dad ‘with a friend’. We don't even know his mother’s maiden name. I have no doubt that the Hag created this alternative universe. Mr Monkey’s dad died when MM was eight. Apparently, The Hag was emotionally abusive to her husband. Long periods (weeks!) of the silent treatment. I'm not surprised by her suppression of history. She was a truly awful woman. The funeral is next Wednesday. I cannot wait for the closure of this nasty chapter in my life. We’re doing OK. MM busy doing all the death admin. Grim.

I don't know why I'm even surprised by MM’s latest revelation triggered by him finding photographs as his mother was evil.

@MonkeyfromManchester the lies seem so pointless, they don't mean anything, lying for the sake of it.
We struggled doing family tree years ago as so many secrets, no idea of names etc my husband is related to literally half the east end of london. My dad's dad just a birth certificate nothing else traceable! Apparently my paternal gparents were both bigamists [exciting] my nan used a different surname, official post was in another name.
There is no real reason that explains it, I do remember my nan saying to me as a small child, we were walking by Wimbledon common where she grew up 'binkie they use to call me the lady of the long grass' 😂😂😱 all very wuthering heights to a child but later on I was a bit 🤔
I wonder if they lie because the truth is so boring/mundane? They can't bear the thought of not being special. My mum was certainly ashamed of her poor Welsh background.

God save us from lunatic families.
Monkey are you doing name tags for funeral with tree showing how everyone is related!

I always have said I would hate to be famous because you would not know the lies my mother would come out with to the press. And they are pointless lies. Totally pointless.

I deleted all social media recently. I just thought I dont want to see anything from the family and they dont get to see anything of mine.