January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Indeed block the number and ignore the message. What they want from you is a response and to them being this disordered of thinking that is the reward. Maintain radio silence.

They will never give you a friendship because they are simply not built that way. It’s also something they fundamentally do not want either, all they want is to control you by tugging on your heartstrings.

Block and delete!

A response - any response - is a win for them

Trouble is I so want a reconciliation I been dreaming about them dying and not seeing them. I just want a relationship with boundaries etc I feel like such a big fucking mess. How awful my own parents hate me enough to never want to see me again etc it’s the rejection. I’ve don’t so well - a year of silence and I am so near cracking.

Meant I have done so well but I’m not sleeping, heart rate manic etc and vivid dreams of them dying and funerals and never making peace

@IAAP I really don't know how to say this without it being bleak but unfortunately it IS bleak. A lot of the time we want things and deserve things and in a fair world would have things, but we don't get them and we can't. It's really sad and to an extent time passing makes it easier, but it can often be more difficult than it is easy.

I don't really have any advice but it's just not something you can get - the universe gave you this through no fault of your own. I'm SO sorry this is like this but neither of us can change it. What there is available to you is friendship, love, affection, good relationships with boundaries. They just don't come from the same place that has damaged you so much already.

💐

Thank you for your responses which has provided some really helpful and much needed perspective. I'm still coming to terms with my late in life found knowledge and acceptance of my family dynamic. I don't know why its taken me so long to see it for what it is. I know that NC is due and necessary, I don't know why I'm so scared to do it. Yes, I accept I've been conditioned to feel this way and this can't carry on.

I have 2 years worth of correspondence evidence on my phone and I read through it regularly to strengthen my resolve and remind myself how bad it is. She's so good at twisting the truth, deflecting the blame. I know she's slagging me off the others as I've senced the unfriendliness and coldness of family members who have no reason to feel that way about me. I'm a good person, polite, kind and decent. I keep my head down and work hard. I can tell she's lying behind my back. God knows what lies she's feeding them.

She's done everything to keep my brother and I from having any kind of relationship. Not that I want one now. The last time I saw my brother at my home I threw him out because of the rude things he said about my weight and his misogynistic views.

Any conversation with her about boundaries is finished with her saying "let's just move past this", let's just draw a line under it", "what can we do to get past this". Then the classic phase from the narc playbook: "I wont deny that everything you have said hurts and I am sorry some of the things I've said you have misinterpreted". Wow. It's so clear what's she doing. It's sinister and it's creeping me out that this is my mother. My dad has hurt me more by doing nothing. She not interested in me, she just wants access to my kids - the pressure she puts on this is unbelievable. It's horrible.

The fact that it's not bad all the time and she can show kindness, as fake as it can be, makes it all the more confusing.

How do you go NC? How do I even start to plan for this. How do you stay resolutely strong when the inevitable pestering and pressure starts to pull you back in? I want to have the strength to do this, but it's huge isn't it!. You're all well ahead of me in this painful process.

Thanks again for your support.

@IAAP huge, huge hugs to you. This is such a painful time for you. I think the text was designed to drag you into the push pull game with your parents rather than a genuine reaching out. I think you need to block that number and not communicate with them. None of this is your fault, your parents are cruel. I think you need to concentrate on you and the lovely children you have. Wishing you all the best with all my heart.

things are hard at Monkey Towers. Mr Monkey is soldiering on with all the death admin to do with his mother aka The Hag. I’m struggling with absolute dread about the funeral. Golden Boy IS coming to the funeral - well, he says he is.

I’m not in a good place with my mental health.

Mummy Monkey and I didn’t have a good relationship when I was growing up. I love her to bits, she’s incredibly kind, but had a shit childhood with a hyper critical, controlling mother and those tendancies she passed on to my mum. Sometimes it just comes out of her mouth. it’s generally low level crap like I how I spend money (like water!!!) and stuff like that. I had to be incredibly tough to get control of my life, but I did it. I am very stubborn. lol.

We made things work from my late 20s onwards, but sometimes the odd thing comes out of her mouth. And I generally ignore it, although it hurts.

Last night there was some low level criticism and then we had a row about a Fucking DOG BREED. “Of course, you’re right” snark and I lost it with her. I’m now hiding in my bedroom like I used to as a child and teenager as she stayed over last night. Mr Monkey is being his usual great self.

I think three years of the Hag and her bullshit, Covid etc has left me feeling that I’ve lost my life. I feel incredibly lonely as I’ve done everything with Mr Monkey and supported him so much . think I’m touchy as hell and I can’t deal with crap from ANYONE. Going to get some kind counselling and once I’ve done my tax return and done a ton of invoicing I’m going to book myself a solo trip which always enriches me.

love my mum dearly, and she’s great and has done so much to help with clearing the shag’s flat, but I’m exhausted by dealing with other people’s nonsense.

over and out.

Nicknack

Abusers are not nasty all the time but their nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one. Drop the rope here entirely and have nothing more to do with either your mum and dad.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. He is your mothers willing enabler and women like your mother always need a willing enabler to help them. Both your parents have failed you utterly here, make no mistake. Your mother wants access to your children only so they can give her lots of lovely narcissistic supply. Many narcissists over value or undervalue the relationship they have with the grandkids so it’s really best for them not to have a relationship with such terrible models of grandparents in the first place.

Start making yourself far less available to them. It does not have to be some grand pronouncement. Be prepared for the flying monkeys sent in by your mother to do her bidding, these people do not have your interests at heart so their opinion should be ignored.

You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Seeing a therapist too may prove helpful. Look at Dr Ramani on YouTube.

@Nicknack111 hugs to you. Your mum won’t take responsibility and she will never will. Blame is clearly being apportioned to you, hence the briefing of the wider family. Hard as it is, it’s pointless explaining stuff to them as it will become a case of she said, she said. How I went very, very low contact with the Hag (very nasty MIL) was by journaling the crap she did - here, actually - getting tremendous support here over the last three years and counselling. Narcs shame you into never speaking aloud and by speaking out loud about the crap (not to the narc as they will NEVER acknowledge the pain they’ve caused) gives you power. Xxx

@AttilaTheMeerkat @MonkeyfromManchester

Thank you. Never a truer word said. I've been watching Dr Ramani videos for 12 months now. It's what helped me understand.

@IAAP I was mostly low contact from age 17. I had quite a few reconciliations over the years, it always ended the same way, arguments, me feeling used and hurt. We never discussed the previous argument so nothing was ever resolved. As I got older I just didn't have the energy, they were older and even more demanding. You will reach a point where you no longer care. You can't heal from a situation while you actively stay in it.
Ignore the message it is part of the game, that is all it is to them. They want you dangling on a string twisting yourself into knots. If you give in you start from square 1 again, it's exhausting.

@Schneekugel it is a tough one regarding friends. In my early 30's I dropped a lot of friends who took advantage of me. I had to get very strong boundaries, I don't like being asked for money, wanting to stay at my home, borrowing stuff, overly dramatic and moaning non stop about the same thing but won't make the necessary changes or put the work in. Emotional vampires suck the life out of you. I had to stop trying to fix/help everyone.
They always said/thought my life was easier than theirs! I worked my arse off for everything I have, I earned every penny. I stopped being available to users.

Shame it took me so long to apply the same boundaries to my family!

@mm
((Hugs))
This limbo stage between the death and funeral is hard
I'm glad you're going to get some counselling... sounds like a positive move

I'm feeling shattered. I'm still not sleeping well. There is so much I planned to do last week, which didn't get done as I felt so rotten:(

I need to rouse myself to prep lunch 😩

Thanks so much @user8800 The funeral isn’t until the 13 March. Much stuff to do to get our tiny house ready for SIL and nephews coming to stay for three days. She’s not looking forward to seeing her toxic ex Golden Boy. GB will try to manipulate her older son as if nothing like a total disappearance from his sons’ lives for SEVEN years. He’s a TWAT.

HUGS TO YOU. Have you tried the Calm app to help you sleep? I was an insomniac for years - being tired is the worse - and the app has really helped. Be kind to yourself. Xxx

@Nicknack111 I found going low contact gradually was easier for me. Even this rocked the boat quite a lot and caused my sibling to go into a rage resulting in him
spreading rumours about me. It was difficult navigating this and i journaled a lot which helped. I was a bit cash strapped at the time otherwise I would have also got a therapist.

Fundamentally if you NC or low contact you need to buff up your self care and support system to deal with the potential back lash. It eventually disappears into the background but is hard at first. What @AttilaTheMeerkat says about grieving is so true - you need to grieve the relationships you hoped for but didn’t get. It’s this hope that makes it so tough to go NC. What I realised was that I didn’t have family but just a bunch of people biologically related to me. So I wasn’t losing anything really but simply making more space in my life by going NC and LC.

I am LC with my mother, LC with my sister (and her kids & partner) + NC with two brothers (and their families). It was quite difficult going NC with my nieces and nephews (they are adults) but I realised that they were flying monkeys when I was low contact with my brothers. It can be quite complicated being LC with some family and NC with others. I am still figuring it all out.

Hope you find something that works for you and gives you time to heal from things.

Great minds @mm!
I downloaded the palm apl last week :)
It is relaxing me at night 🌙
I'm girding my loins to try and get a drs appointment to discuss but its very hard to get an appointment
My arm is still really sore too. Sigh. My edifice is crumbling! 😩😀

Calm app even!!
🙄🤣

Thanks Binkie. It's weird how it's easier to have boundaries with friends than family. I did a similar shedding of user friends at the same age. I can't think of a reason why it should be harder with family, it can only be because society's expectations are that we remain in contact with family however difficult they are. My friend isn't all bad and I do get something from the friendship so I'll keep an eye on the situation and try to have stronger boundaries around the negativity.

What I realised was that I didn’t have family but just a bunch of people biologically related to me. So I wasn’t losing anything really but simply making more space in my life by going NC and LC

this resonates tonewbeginnings.

I don't know what to do any more.
How do you not play? My mother has had the police out and I can't get what I need to say out of my head and I can't call it up.
She heard from the police to stay away and then she came in and said I had been aggressive to my boyfriend. He was in rehearsal at his university choir and he's at formal right now. And allegedly I was aggressive to him. He wasn't in the building.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau I feel for you I do. My mum is now making up things that never happened where apparently I physically abused her too and its not one bit true. YOu really need to get out of there by any means possible. I know its not that easy of course and there is never an excuse for their behaviour but no sense half the time either. All we do is defend ourselves over and over and because we are normal thinking and feeling people with emotions we look crazy to their calm as they know the shitstorm they have created. So awful for you. I am so sorry you are dealing with this.

@CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau hugs to you at this awful time.
They get worse, they’re full of rage, and you’ll end up feeling like you are losing your mind.
Why can’t we have nice kind mums 😞

@Moaning5 that is the saddest thing. My closest friends mums have died and they were so close to them. I suppose in a way I was always envious in a way but all we can do is make up for it with our own ones.

Yes we can be that amazing mum we never had.
People have no idea how hard this is 😞

@Genuineweddingone @Moaning5
I am a better mum to my dogs than my parents were to me!
I chose to have dogs, they didnt choose me.
I choose to love them. I look after their physical & emotional health, I feed them, good walks, play, swim, cuddles, vets if needed. I dont shout at them, I dont beat them, I dont play favourites. If Iv had a tough day with work or I dont feel well, I dont take it out on them, I dont expect them to do the housework!

There is something utterly lacking in these selfish, nasty mums, it is a CHOICE to deliberately behave that way. I wonder if the golden, chosen children are the ones who mirror the parent the most and are a shining reflection of them? bloody warped! Its not normal, thats for sure. The contrast of my dogs lives compared to my childhood is a constant stark reminder of how far short my parents fell and their choices.