January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Classic hag day. Hilarity from beyond the grave.

I read the will. She describes her family as such. My words.

I have two sons: Golden Boy and Mr Monkey. I have a stepson Slave Son.

I leave everything to my son MM because GB hasn't been in touch with me since 2017.

So…

Nothing for Slave Son.

I know he's a dick, but he has done practically everything for her since the 1980s.

Nice.

Fucksake, what a bitch.

How did SS respond?

More to the point, how did GB respond?

@TheShellBeach

I know!

Slave Son asked for the microwave.

Admittedly, he has £ of his own and isn't (openly) angry, but being described as ‘step son’ when he gave his life up for her…

No words.

Over the last few days, I've sorted out her personal belongings. Vast majority of it is shredded tatters so there is a very small corner of a very small room with a very small pile of things that are fit to be offered to family as memenotos. The kitchen has pans that you wouldn't let your dog eat out of.

She was truly fucked up.

I was reading a few school reports today from one of those case of documents that every family has.

All her kids were clever.

Slave Son - SORRY, HE’S HER STEP SON WTAF - went to a highly selective catholic state grammar school and clearly didn't give a fuck as a troubled teenager. Wonder why.

His dad helped him to get there

Golden Boy, of course, went to a selective state Catholic grammar school - just not as posh as SS.

His dad helped him to get there.

MM went to a dreadful special measures shit hole Catholic secondary school. Left with 2 GCSEs.

His dad had died - Mr Monkey was eight and was in primary school. Hag never supported him to go to a better secondary school.

MM’s primary school reports are GLOWING (this is the man who got a first as a mature student so unsurprising}

One report heartbreakingly says “obviously it's been a very difficult year”. Did the school know about his shitty family life?

MM could never understand why he wasn't at the better schools when he looked back. He just took it as read that the brothers were cleverer.

NO, BECAUSE YOUR MUM DIDN’T SORT OUT THE EXAMS FOR YOU.

She ALWAYS put him down about his education. I encouraged him to go to university when he was 36. I earned the £. My mum and I sorted out his graduation, my mum gave him the £ for an MA, the hag or brothers did fuck all for his graduation, i sorted the lot.

She held her sons back in so many ways. Witch,

@MonkeyfromManchester When my paternal grandmother died in 2016, she left half her estate (which was sizeable) to her niece and her husband, and split the other half between my father and his younger brother. Younger brother's kids were mentioned in it...myself and my two brothers were not. She hated my mother, never forgave my mother for 'making' my father emigrate to Oz when my mother was pregnant with me.

Funny thing is, if I hadn't requested a copy of the will last year (as part of me checking if my father was still alive, I've been no contact with him for 35 years) neither myself, my mother or two brothers would have ever known...

@MonkeyfromManchester that was low leaving nothing to SS. Bitch.

@MonkeyfromManchester very long time lurker here.

I’m so sorry about all the stuff you,Mr.M and everybody else in your family had to endure from the Hag.

Some people are just evil.

Wishing you strength and peace 💐 lots of hugs

She didn't even leave her thanks and gratitude. So nasty. I feel sorry for him.

@FreeRider
So you are to blame for the ‘sins’ of your parents. Did you find your dad?

@Genuineweddingone

Yep.

He absorbed her spleen for years, gave up his life and that’s the result. He's 66. No relationship since the 1980s. Poor health and a shit life.

It was all waiting for Mr Monkey as Slave Son passed his usefulness.

She wrote the will about seven years ago when Golden Boy fucked off, so she could have very easily just thought ‘oh yes, my step son is my de facto husband I should thank him with some cash’. Dreadful woman.

@FrenchBoule thank you. I feel a weight off my shoulders.

@Schneekugel

True to form even beyond the grave.

Slave Son was sobbing by her bedside when the priest gave her the last rites. I’m surprised it wasn't like a scene from The Exorcist.

Mr Monkey will do the right thing by his brother.

Thankfully, there are no elaborate funeral requests. I'm going to get shit faced at the wake. But gag myself first.

That's truly shitty that SS who has essentially devoted his life to his step-mum gets nothing. She really did see him as a servant :-(

@MonkeyfromManchester ball gag or gimp mask 😂christ I wouldn't trust myself, it's why I said no to my mums funeral, I never know if I'm going to kick off or behave until the split second before. Luckily my family know that only too well.

@MonkeyfromManchester, I'm so glad to read that Mr. M will do right by SS. I assume you won't go no contact with him?

Had a good day here. DH had the day off, because it was our wedding anniversary. (Yes, we married 13th.) My mum came up and we all really enjoyed our day. DH cooked a fantastic pork risotto.

Even my sister sent a lovely card.

Unfortunately no word from any of DH's family. Really sad as we found out by chance that his DB basically got a promotion that will be the highlight of his career. DH texted him, because he wanted to congratulate him. But nothing back.

DH's birthday soon and he's really dreading it because his mother usually uses that as a trigger to try and regain contact. But, since the police got involved, it's been radio silence. Fingers crossed 🤞🏻

My mum cheered him up though. Decent gluten free cakes that are birthday themed are difficult to get. But she found a Colin the Caterpillar one!! DH is delighted because normally it's a plain chocolate or sponge for his birthday.

I just love seeing him so happy. He deserves the world.

@Spencer0220

Definitely keeping in touch with Slave Son. We want to make his life better so we will help with his move out of a terraced house with killer stairs to a flat more suitable for his MS. Hag hated her sons spending time together - divide and rule. He's a nice man, just very damaged.

Happy anniversary and happy birthday to your husband. I'm so pleased you had a lovely day with no toxic family to make it grim.

@binkie163
Ha ha ha!

@parentalalienation
Absolutely horrible of her. If she'd had her way, she would have kicked him to the kerb as he was passing his usefulness as he was getting increasingly disabled. She was lining up Mr Monkey to replace him. She was thinking of moving here or Mr Monkey moving in with her. Not sure how I figured into that scenario. Lucky escape!

@MonkeyfromManchester Oh yes, my paternal grandmother definitely did think we were linked to the stupid and/or bad decisions my narcissistic parents made. My mother also tends to think the same way, ever since my father left her for another woman I've had to hear 'oh if you didn't look so much like/be like your father!'

You picked him, love...

I don't want to find my father (I have a vague idea where he is anyway), I was just interested to see if he was alive or not. I've often joked that if Davina McCall ever comes near me she's getting a kick in the cooch!

@MonkeyfromManchester thank you! You made DH grin. He follows monkey updates vividly.

@FreeRider aww, I like Davina, but I know what you mean. I wouldn't want to appear on there either. Brilliant tv though

At xmas goldenballs brother left my sons gifts in my mothers. We do not live there and never had. Anyway as we didnt obviously see her all over xmas the gifts were still there. Ds has just answered the door to the postman. Parcel from the mothers house with the bits from my brother from xmas and a valentines card with cash from her for him. Give me strength.

Oh gosh.

Keep the cash and don't mention the card?

Mid term break here - he answered the door so got the parcel himself.

DM was full time carer for her DM and said often that she'd NEVER ask that of her children, especially her unmarried childfree DD (me).

DGM died and I start getting the 'why don't you come and live out here?' (like your DM she was in Australia). I knew what she was on about, even if she wouldn't admit it even to herself, and living with a functioning alcoholic with cancer devolved on DB and SIL and damned near broke them. At least when DM was diagnosed she said straight out she was going into a hospice. As other DB says, DB in Australia has a rather rose tinted view of our childhood and of DM somewhat.

@FreeRider so, aged 6, you were responsible for the move? Ridiculous.

@Spencer0220 xxx

@Genuineweddingone
Good grief!!! Did your son know that your Toxic mother reported you to social services? I get that a kid is going to take a gift. Your TM is desperate to get you back in her grip.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain this is it! Hag lived with her ageing mother for a time and then walked out as it was terrible. Yet she expected us to do full on care for her. Fucking hypocrisy. Sheer entitlement too.

He knows she rang the school to say he was being neglected cos they called him out of class to talk about it and he knows that the school had to contact ss. I have not specifically told him about 2019 when she called them too but he may have heard me on the phone.

He jokes about the neglect now, we both do especially say yesterday when I made him up his usual valentines hamper for 'my little love bug' or pancake day when I made him a stack of them with every topping imagineable. Or when I took him away last weekend to our holiday appartment or the weekend a few weeks ago when I took him to a log cabin. Even when I drive him to school in the morning in a car preheated so its warm for him with his clean clothes and packed lunch after having a nice hot breakfast cooked for him. Then there is the fact I changed my working hours around so I am there when he gets the (private) bus home from school to another snack and a warm home.

I decided so as to show he is alive that he should pick up his own iphone 15 that I got him for xmas to text both of them just to say thanks as I am not raising a rude child and they both just texted back 'no problem x ' and neither asked how he was.

Now I am not saying that buying him things nor bringing him places is the proof of love in any way, he has every luxury available to him but by no means is he a spoiled brat but there are kids out there that do not get fed hot meals every day nor have clean clothes or nice lunches for school and they are the children ss need to be chasing up. Shes not only pissed me off, humiliated my son but wasted valuable resource time too.

Met up with mad aunt yesterday (it's only usually twice a year for a couple of hours) I was only asked so I could drive them 🙃

Went ok. I'm trying to be more zen around her.

Mum as usual didnt say much/contribute to convo. It's just exhausting tbh.

@mm. Glad that SS might now spend his remaining years in comfort x

@MonkeyfromManchester I wasn't even born! My mother was about 4 months pregnant with me when they emigrated...well, my father emigrated, my mother is Australian, my father is French.

The whole reason they did was because my father had lied about his age when he met my mother...when they met he was only 18 and she was 23. My mother was pregnant with my older brother within 6 months of them meeting, they met in the January and were married in the December. My father turned 20 the day before my older brother was born and I was born only a year and two weeks later. My father was still a student, they had very little money and my mother says were virtually starving when my mother's parents offered to pay for them to go to Australia.

Add in that my father didn't tell my mother that his father was dying of cancer before they left (my. mother didn't find that out until my father left her 21 years later) and my paternal grandmother no doubt felt all of the above gave her a justifiable reason to hate my mother. Unfortunately that hatred also extended to her three grandchildren...

Hello all, sorry I've been a bit sporadic on this thread. Thanks @flapjackfairy for thinking of me but I've been feeling a bit guilty (does one feel guilty about using this thread? I do...) about not contributing. Also particular thoughts to @MonkeyfromManchester and MrM. It honestly feels a bit weird reading about the Hag's aftermath, having read so much of her evildoing in life.

I'm not sure I'm going to dive into everything that's been happening, but if it's OK, two things! They are long so please feel free to skip over :)

1. Velvet the cat! She's still adorable and spending a lot of time with me. My mother is still incredibly jealous. She comes into my room multiple times a day (even more multiple times than usual, she also recently shouted at me because I asked her fairly sharply please not just to open the door without knocking as I was getting dressed and was naked. Apparently she's perfectly allowed to do this because I have worn pyjamas when my boyfriend has been over) to check whether she's on my bed, which she normally is, and then will make sure to disturb her, stare at her, encourage her to wake up and make lots of jealous remarks about how much more the cat likes her than she likes me. She's also started making a lot of remarks about "how will she cope when you've gone?" or "she's really going to miss you when you move out". So I'm already feeling sad about leaving her when she's my little friend, and I'm also worrying about this and feeling like I have even less privacy than usual.

1. What happened today. So my mother goes to the local pharmacy - very small, the pharmacist knows her and all of her customers, that sort of place - quite often and says she will pick up my prescriptions too, so I changed from the big Boots, which I prefer because they more often have my meds in stock and also because it's more impersonal and I can do other shopping there more easily, to the local pharmacy. This person undoubtedly knows us both, who we are and which medication we get. Apparently my mother has been repeatedly refused this medication OTC because she tries to buy it so often, and they only give it to her when she has it on prescription. At 2PM (bear in mind she had a GP appt at 3PM and could have got a prescription) we were driving past and she suddenly said "[Birth name which I have been asked countless times not to use at the beginning of every sentence ever especially when nobody else is in the house or car] you need to run out and get me some [medication names] from the pharmacy, say it's for you because they won't give it to me unless I have a prescription". I was surprised and said "but isn't that illegal" at which point she shouted something, smacked the dashboard and floored the accelerator for about two seconds before another car appeared and I seized the opportunity to jump out while she was giving way, I then ran into the pharmacy and tried to get the meds. Guess what, she didn't just ask if it was for me, she asked if it was for me, if it was for the embarrassing illness if it was for, what it looked like last time I'd had it, did I take any other medications or have health conditions which could be a problem - my answers were all lies and she very obviously knew. When I got back into the car I apologised and said it might not be correct because I didn't know what it looked like, etc. My mother then proceeded to shout at me about how much she'd had to suffer looking after me and how "life is grey" and how dreadful I was even though I just kept saying I didn't want to talk about it, then she said "oh I'll go and tell the pharmacist what happened" - er, no. I'm trying to get my job as a lawyer back and also would quite like to be able to pick up my prescriptions in future. I don't know if she did or not. But just ARGH.

Why don't you move out, @CeciledeVolangesdeNouveau?
Is it because of Velvet?

@TheShellBeach it's actually because of money. I've been in and out of their house, in between intervals of living independently, my whole adult life - I got a very intense, quite lucrative job as soon as I graduated and moved into London, but it's turned into a vicious circle partly fuelled by my parents' conviction that I am incapable of living alone, their determination never to let me move out (if they get a sniff of trouble my mother will be there speaking to the landlord to terminate my rental agreement and my dad will be backing up my stuff within days, I don't get a say or a choice, and my mother's attacked me before when I've tried to move out, the only reason I managed it last time, between January-March last year, was because my mother was blanking me and my father after being arrested for GBH against him).

But this time I'm caught between a rock - I'm on sick pay because work won't let me back until I'm stably and completely cured of all the dozens of mental health issues I oddly have, and which are made hugely worse by being in this environment, and a hard place - in order to stay in this house and not be thrown out onto the streets (no, I don't have family or friends able to help and I've looked at social housing etc) I have to give them almost all my sick pay, and to get to some of the further away medical appointments etc most of what very little I have left will go on a bus or taxi to the hospital, for example. So I literally don't have enough money to put down a deposit. My mother also says the quiet part out loud when she reminds me to pay, saying "the horses are very expensive and so is the building work on my second house".

To make matters worse, every time I've built up some savings it either gets taken away from me for various reasons (inheritance from my DGM at 21? I had to pay for my horse to be euthanised and for the cremation my mother wanted, even though I wasn't told she was going to be put down, and had also been asked to spend all the savings I'd made before 21 buying the horse from my mother. Saved up £6000? My mother decided I needed to go to rehab, which I did not, I went in sober and was transferred to a psychiatric hospital within five or so days because I was not drunk, I was seriously mentally ill. But I still had to pay with all my savings.) Final punch in the gut: none of this applies to my sister. She has not ever paid a penny towards her own horses and in fact I looked after hers and kept it fit - neither of us enjoyed it much but I liked the horses and was willing to actually do the hard work - let alone paying for hers to be shot. Also, where I basically killed myself trying to pay to live independently and have been charged rent which means I literally can't do that any more, she has had her large flat in Paris paid for since she was 21 (she's now 26). In full. While she works for a hedge fund. This is the same charming lady who recommended I try throwing myself down the stairs at Christmas.

So I'm a bit stuck at the moment. Sorry for the essay.

Velvet... I don't know what I'll do about her :( I think cross that bridge when I come to it. It would be such a wrench to lose her. I remember when I thought I was leaving our old cat for the last time, just crying into his fur