January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

I relate to a lot of this! Especially the secrecy stuff. That was very confusing. Never tell anyone [random mundane thing]!

Not time to post properly but @Nationaltrustme your mum sounds like mine. It is horrible and stressful. Wishing you well x

@GreggsVeganSausageRoll gosh I'm sorry tobhear that your mum said that about you, to your boyfriend and all the autism stuff. I understand why you haven't told her. I hate proving my mum right!

@PeoniesLilac yes it's a very nuanced relationship and there are a lot of emotions involved. She is my mother, after all. I do remember all the late night pep talks, the surprises she planned for me, sitting on her knee while she cleaned up a nosebleed, sobbing into her shoulder after a breakup as a teen, her helping me to cover a spot before a date. Mundane moments. Silly times too, taking selfie and making silly faces, having some in jokes.

I also remember the fact that no other person in my life hqs ever hurt me as much as she has, through the years. Knowing what a disappointment I am when I know that any other normal mother would be proud of me. Really she wanted a little doll to love her unquestioningly, but she got a real person instead. She said I'm a very complicated person, very serious, too serious, too sensitive.

Really she just means 'too human'.

@Nationaltrustme I always laugh when someone says 'im not being judgemental but......the caveat is disingenuous.
My mum was judgemental, racist, homophobic and a snob, while playing the sweet old lady.
Pointing out other people's short comings is often projection, my mum was an alcoholic and was obsessed with other people's drinking! Bonkers.
@BrownFurBunny he who pays the piper picks the tune. Money = control. Presents should come with ribbons not strings. You cannot heal from a situation when you chose to stay in it. It's a tough one.

Your mother wanted and still wants for herself a mini me, not a human being Nationaltrustme. And she calling you too sensitive amongst other thing is a red flag loaded at their unfortunate offspring by their inadequate parent.

Abusers are not all bad all the time, if they were no one would want to be with them. They can also be quite plausible to those in the outside world (though in some cases one or two people have their own private based suspicions about them).

My MIL volunteers for the church and professes to take any interest in her elder sister (when she really does not give a fig and makes her health troubles all about her), everyone thinks she is great but I’ve seen her narcissistic rage. She’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

The nice/nasty cycle of abuse that they adopt and otherwise played out is a continuous one.

You already have physical distance between you and she, you additionally need to put more mental distance between you and she. This stuff should be taught in schools to my mind.

And MIL is truly a crap gift giver like so many narcissists are. No thought whatsoever is given into her gift buying so I no longer participate in that sham.

That's very interesting to me.
My sister gives ridiculous gifts, which are thoughtlessly chosen, and bestowed upon us in a ceremony where she cooks lunch.

Then, when everyone has gone, she tears them apart and mocks what they were wearing and what they said.

The crap gift giving really is something else. Highly Toxic Sister was an expert at it. The shit she gifted to me/my family included... (drum roll)...

Plastic beakers (DCs were late teenagers)
Really hideous ugly mugs, one with a big crack, (for me, DCs, and DH)
Dented hip flask, which I initially thought was nice, but when opened had dregs of some awful mouldy aftershave in it.
Bag of peanuts, every year, for my DH birthday.
Flipflops in totally wrong size.
Any old shit picked up out of her house that she couldn't be bothered to take to the charity shop, including stuff that clearly hadn't been washed.

And when my DH rang her to check my sizes when he wanted to buy me a nice surprise gift outfit for a special occasion, she deliberately told him completely wrong sizes, including wrong shoe size by 2 sizes when she knew very well what size I am.

Like an idiot I always gave the benefit of the doubt and never really thought about it until this thread highlighted how narcs cannot bear to think of other people and gift them nice things. Then it all started dropping into place. (Slaps forehead and realises what an idiot I have been.)

@TheShellBeach - and yes! the ceremony and harking about what great gifts they have bestowed! What the actual fuck?

@Nationaltrustme i can relate to a lot of what you say, unfortunately. I too have a visceral reaction to my mother, a lot of what she says or does disgusts me. I think it’s because I see the real her that it physically repulses me to see her act in the way she thinks she should. I view her as some sort of robot person tbh, I don’t view her as healthy or normal in any way.

Like your mother, mine will claim to have sympathy for people or situations but her words and actions never marry. Like your mother, all sympathy is reserved for the parents when something tragic or awful happens to a child. Labelling certain actions as “selfish” is typical, she doesn’t have the ability to look beneath the surface to see why a person behaves the way they do.

If I’m honest my mother really embarrasses me. Her views on life and the world, in general, make me cringe. She’s also extremely jealous of me (of anyone, in fact, who has “more” than her) and struggles to hide it. She often has this inappropriate smirk on her face that disturbs me. I’m very low contact with her, thankfully. When your eyes have been opened to this nightmarish behaviour you can’t unsee it. Her, and my father (and sister, golden child) repulse me in every way. I’ve done therapy too and it’s been life changing. Good luck with this journey, it’s incredibly hard but so worth it.

The shit gifts I genuinely thought before this thread it was just my mum but its a narc thing. One year she gave my brother who is your typical beer swilling footie lover a case of fine wines. I who love wine and do not bake got a baking set. From some cheap place. My sister got cash. Its like even in gifting she needed to show that you are not my worthy one but telling people at the time how wonderful genuine is. its an underlying tactic to make others think they are wonderful but being spiteful underneath. I am not sure if I already posted about the year I bought her a deep fat fryer for mothers day despite her going on one of her nasty 'attacks' at me and I got ALL of the praises all while internally I was thinking how I wanted so much to dunk her head in it. They bring out the worst in us because everything they do is calculated and we are not wired the same way. Once you see it though and once it is engrained in your head it is hard to stop seeing.

My mum is not in the least good looking nor well maintained but as a mother I loved her and didnt give a shit but now I think of her and she has this blackhead on her face she wont 'pop' and it turns my stomach. Her eyes are the same colour as mine but mine are full of love and hers are full of cruelty. Even if she stopped dressing like a baglady and dressed up the way she does for weddings and things she will still look ugly to me because I have seen the real her, SHe could be the most gorgeous looking person on the planet but the internal person always shows at one point and once the coin flips it is all you will see.

Incidentally now 8 weeks since I cut her off. 8 weeks of freedom.

Hugs to everyone. @Genuineweddingone so pleased you are at your 8 week milestone. Your mother and difficult siblings deserve NOTHING from you.

The terrible stories of ‘mothering’ reported here makes me so sad. Standing with you.

It's all OK here. Mr Monkey was, as you'd expect, really struggling on Thursday/Friday/the weekend after his mother’s aka The Hag’s death very early on Thursday AM. He’s doing all the sorting out now and is much better.

It's been basically left to him, me and my mum to sort out Hag’s flat, funeral, dealing with the coroner, the will, social workers etc etc.

NO surprise that there's no help from Golden Boy as he was missing in action for seven years and is self-centred that it would never even occur to him to say “anything I can help with”. All the work is for the mere mortals. MM doesn't want him involved as he doesn't want any contact.

He will, I'm sure, going to be rocking up to the funeral expecting lots of £££ in her will and to be the centre of attention. Neither is happening. Not in the will and people think he's a twat.

Bit surprised by Slave Son, but he’s reeling as Hag was his life, plus he can't think outside of the world she had created for him. He’ll be drinking and smoking.

But we’re doing ok. We are the ones that count.

It's shit MonkeyfromManchester. You find out who is on your side at deaths and funerals. When my dad died, my brother did nothing. I was in charge of all the phonecalls to the many people who needed to know. Likewise the funeral director, the venue for the gathering afterwards, the death certificate etc. He helped collect all dad's clothes together but had no choice because my son, daughter and aunt and uncle were all involved. The less you expect from golden balls, the best. And SSon sounds strategically incompetent too. Deep breath and it'll soon be done.

@MonkeyfromManchester nearly there, once funeral done you are free an clear. You never have to see any of them again x

Re: Christmas and Xmas gifts...mum has forgotten my birthday more than once 🤣
I used to get the most godawful crap for Christmas until I insisted on doing Secret santa instead. Don't even do that anymore as I no longer sort it out!

@mm...funeral/death admin is the pits, but it will give MrM a different focus, which will hopefully help.

Today hasn't quite gone to plan, but hey ho

Dc1 has an infection, so he's going to the Dr's soon

Dc2 is shattered - not half term here until next week.

Love to all x

Re: funerals.
Yep.
When dad died, I did everything.
Everything.
It was so hard :(
I'm still so sad they just let me bear the load alone :(

When my DF died my mother was too upset apparently to do anything other than drink herself into a stupor for days. This is the woman who had multiple affairs, spoke to him like he was a dog and had him working every hour he could while she sat at home on her backside. Even now any mention of him elicits a fake hand wringing poor me my husband died speech. Honestly she's such a narcissist

Re Xmas presents - this year a monogrammed cushion cover with the letter 'n' on it (none of my names begin with N) and a goats milk and honey soap (I've been vegan for 20 years) 🤷‍♀️🙈

Wow! That all sounds really good. When I am in contact with my mum I dread talking to her, even on the phone. I will snap at everyone around me in the run up to seeing her then after I've seen her I'll moan to my husband about how awful she was.

When I go completely non contact though I get irrational anxiety once in a while that she might be dead and have nightmares.

I have no idea how to go about therapy, I hate talking about it all. No-one knows about any apart from my husband (and my family but I'm not in touch with most of then now).

I do want to change though as I have my own children, I don't want to repeat any of my own experiences. I have shouted at the kids before and started to sound exactly like my mum. I just want to be happier in general too for their sakes. I cut contact completely with my mum when I had them as I was worried she would abuse them, her dad has also been accused of peadophilia and he was living with her when I had my first.

Sorry, bit of a ramble but I don't speak about this with anyone. I don't like to speak to my husband too much as he is currently dealing with depression.

Hi all it's been a long time since I've been on this thread.

I'm very low contact with my mother but my other half (of 6 years) is very pro maintaining a relationship with her.
Anyway we had a nice weekend with her a few months ago and we've just booked a lodge for Easter and invited her

WHICH APPEARS TO BE A HUGE MISTAKE!

Tonight she phones and says she's off to the solicitor for POA and that she'll be asked who will care for her if she can't care for herself 🤔 I said what an odd question for POA. She said she won't go in a home!
I then said I wouldn't be moving 200 miles to care for her and didn't even enter into her living with us!!

Is this a normal conversation? I won't be asking my kids to care for me. If they offer great but it's not their job to care for me in my old age

I find I'm quite harsh with her so I'm trying to get some perspective as to whether normal parents do this?

I recognise the effect on mood and relationships around festive season. I didn't realise until the 3rd year of living in another country just how ill the stress of dreading their visitation was making me.
I did therapy originally for the kids as I didn't want to repeat dysfunctional parenting. By the time I got diagnosed with PTSD I'd realised it needed to be for me and noone else. Therapy will give you someone to talk to other than your husband. It'll probably help your relationship.

TomAllenWife Poa is not about providing care for someone. It is about making decisions about finances and health of someone if they are incapable. At no point in the form are you asked who will care for you. I have recently had mine done, so I know. Either your mum has misunderstood or is deliberately misunderstanding.

Any old shit picked up out of her house that she couldn't be bothered to take to the charity shop

Partner's late mother used to do the same thing. Usually stuff she'd been given and didn't want.... boot slippers 2 sizes too small (and partner couldn't understand why I wouldn't (couldn't)) wear them...toiletry gift sets with the original gift tag still on them...and some of them were up to a decade old!

I've been struggling today with keeping my mouth shut. It's only been 4 and a half months but I'm really getting sick of having to listen to partner going on about how 'wonderful' his narcissistic father treated deceased mother...the latest is partner saying 'oh he's going to find Wednesday tough'...for a moment I didn't have a clue what he meant, thought it was a anniversary or something...no he just meant Valentine's Day.

Took all my strength not to say 'oh you mean the wife he told - twice - in the last 4 years of her life that he didn't love anymore?' Her own sister in law told partner's mother during that time that his father was having an affair....probably a 'revenge' affair as partner's mother had her own affair when partner went to university. Up until his mother's death partner was always saying they should have split up then, his mum would have been a lot happier....that's now all been forgotten and partner is insisting his parents had a fairytale marriage.

It's driving me fucking nuts!

@TomAllenWife 30 years ago my narcissistic mother was always saying to me and my younger brother (we were in our mid 20s at the time, my mother was my age now, early 50s) how terrible it was that her mother, our grandmother, made 3 of her brothers give up their whole adult lives to look after her, so she could stay in the family home . Always used to say that she would never expect the same of either of us, that she'd rather go in a home and be looked after by trained professionals, rather than resentful family...

30 years later, guess who has just become her live-in carer? My younger brother. She's been trying to get him to do it since she was about 65. Apart from a pacemaker, she's in okay health for a woman of 82. I know she expected me to do it, but I made the wise choice 30 years ago to move to the other side of the world... I also remind myself that if my brother has been stupid enough to fall for her emotional blackmail, that's his problem, not mine.