January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Monkey

re your comment:

"GB texts Mr Monkey to say “I've texted X five times and he's not got back to me.” Is MM supposed to ring X and say “I command you as your uncle to go and have a pint with your Dear Papa.” He hasn't, obviously, but has kept in touch with eldest nephew with supportive texts as he's struggling with the death. MM hasn't replied to the texts"

He should not reply to any text from GB. GB was trying to use Mr Monkey here as a flying monkey!. Glad to read Mr Monkey did not fall for it.

@MonkeyfromManchester

Good grief Mr Monkey’s family is the one that just keeps on giving and giving.

It’s just shocking the trail of destruction these people leave behind isn’t it? GB sounds like a total Mr Hag and just needs to pop off back to where he came from.

You can keep any decision about the money for when he is long, long gone.

Physically clearing her flat must be tough - it sounds like most of it needs to go to the tip.

Take care MM and look after yourself.

@MonkeyfromManchester ah yes the inheritance, another game narcs like to play that will cause upset and tension. They can't even be decent once dead.
The hag RIH

@AttilaTheMeerkat totally. It was one of The Hag’s tricks where she would use phone calls as a weapon of mass destruction.

MM is not texting apart from practcalities. There are no practicalties right now so no texts.

Golden Boy sent a classic text when he was here last week for performance of caring son by the Hag’s hospital bed. It was a photograph of his daughter (5) stood next to MM’s dad’s grave. NO IDEA WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT.

My family means everything to me? I am a very caring person? Look at me visiting dad’s grave?

Fuck knows. Mr Monkey doesn't reply.

@IAAP thank you. The destruction she left is incredible. All that nice Catholic old lady shit. Purleeese. I'm going to have to wear the fake smile at the funeral.

All the many unused gifts - mostly, toiletries - in her spare room will go to the charity for homeless women that Mr Monkey. The rest = the tip.

@binkie163 gosh, i hadnt even thought that would be the reason. More trinangulation. Never ending shit from her.

Well done to Mr Monkey for not falling for the texts from GB. You're right, he's going to try to be Mr Monkey's new best friend once he realises that's where the money has gone. I recognise the grief for who you wish your parent could have been. It's almost a double dose of grief. Hoping you can have some rest and healing time together this weekend.

I hope MM decides to block GB once and for all as soon as the funeral is over. Binkie is right about the post-death drama continuance. The shit my Highly Toxic Sister pulled was oscar-worthy.

I feel no grief at all about my mother's death. All the FOG lifted quite quickly, which I was pleasantly surprised about, and I feel none of that at all about being NC with my siblings. So I learned that the FOG and trauma-bond was associated only with my mother. This became clear once she was dead.

@Parentalalienation I'm so proud of MM. Post funeral there will be no contact and very little in the run up to it. GB is not stepping into this house, SIL and her sons are staying here. We are not doing a cosy meal somewhere ‘to remember mam and be family’ with him. Fuck that. He's a total self-involved, entitled bastard.

@Sicario i remember the tales! I hadn't figured out the game with the will, but now I see it. More game playing from beyond the grave. FFS.

Mr Monkey singing Eastenders theme tune downstairs. 😆

Golden Boy has just phoned him to ask ‘when the funeral is’.

Right-o.

GB is completely aware that there will be an inquest into Hag’s demise so no date for funeral.

Oddly enough (ha), the conversation then swerves into GB asking has Mr Monkey heard from nephew as GB hasn't had a response to the many texts he's sent the son he abandoned. GB has sent texts to MM trying to involve MM in the drama. Which have been ignored.

MM cool as a cucumber said I know from speaking to SIL (your ex-wife, pal) last night that the nephew has been very busy with work and ‘he’ll get in touch when he wants to’, aka never.

GB will be livid that SIL is a big part of our lives. What did he expect? We’d side with that abusive prick? FFS.

I know MM will repeat that line ‘it’s up to him’ if he calls again, and he's not going to force his nephew to ring his dick of a father. MM isn't as vulnerable as he was when they were kids when GB would just force MM to carry out his whims.

MM has the upper hand “gotta go, cooking breakfast” which is code for fuck right off.

Hilarious to see the fucking prick desparate to establish a bond (lol) with his son, so he doesn't have to fly solo at the funeral.

And everyone sees through him. Including his kids.

So proud of Mr Monkey.

Well done to Mr. M!

Was he actually cooking breakfast? 😂

Not commented previously but have been following The Hag’s demise. Condolences to MM. Will he be receiving an inheritance? Was just gonna say, enjoy spending every penny xxx

I wanted to like your post! Rooting for Mr Monkey and your extended family. The benefits of therapy and all the work you've both done is shining through.

I'm so interested in what people are saying about sisters organising family get-togethers.

My older sister is forever doing this. It was some years before I suddenly realised that I do not have to attend. And my children also gradually realised that they do not have to attend, either.

Such a freeing experience.

You know what - DH and I even moved five hundred miles away from them. My sisters came on a State Visit.

I blocked them immediately afterwards. At first it felt weird, but now, I couldn't give a toss about them or their shitey families.

So @MonkeyfromManchester you can block your nasty lot, too, as soon as the funeral is over. I know you need to go through the inquest first but that'll hopefully be a formality. Sending you and everyone on this thread solidarity.

@Spencer0220 he was! Major veggie breakfast. You cannot keep Mr Monkey from food. 😆

Ooh is he a vegetarian?

We're meat eaters here, but we absolutely love the Linda McCartney rosemary sausages. I need to put them on my shopping list actually...,

Hello everyone. I want to join. I've been lurking for years and years and now need to vent.

My mother really seems to resent me. I don't really know how to encapsulate our dynamic in a short format but basically, the following is the beat way I can sum it up.

As a child I remember she absolutely doted on me, and then a lot of that warmth seemed to go away as I went into my teens. I mean, she tried her best and has a lot of good traits which I really admire, but I always felt like she didn't like me. She often said I was too sensitive, too 'bolshy', that she was thinking of sending me to a special boarding school for unruly teens (I was not unruly! I was a pretty good kid actually). I took an overdose as a teen and she was absolutely furious and seemed more concerned that there was a nurse there at the hospital who she knew. She went nuts and told me how selfish I was.

All my life she used me as a therapist and when I put boundaries in place and didn't want to listen anymore, she got mad at me and then has kind of acted kind of hurt ever since, as if its unreasonable for me to not want to hear about her terrible experiences in life but she is so magnanimous she will forgive me.

I remember getting the silent treatment a good bit. Normally she would say something totally bonkers and unreasonable, I would snap and she would take offence at whatever I said. I would beg and plead for forgiveness and she wouldn't relent.

15 years ago I moved away and had an amazing life. I go home to visit her as much as I can but I know she is angry with me for daring to move abroad. She has never directly come out and said it, but she has very strongly implied that she thinks that it was incredibly selfish of me to live my life and go after my dreams. I'd be so proud of my girls of they lived the kind of life that I have: honestly, it has been full of a lot of adventure and I have a really great job and just a wonderful lifestyle.

Any time I fill her in on what I've been doing, she makes a big song and dance about not being impressed. I've been having a difficult time with a colleague lately and I told her about it, against my better judgement. She kept saying that my company must have very low standards if they employed her. I told her about a really supportive community I'm part of and she said 'sounds incestuous'.

She screws up her face at a lot of the things I say or sometimes just won't reply to something I've said. She dislikes everyone in my life, all of my friends, and, I strongly suspect, my husband, even though he is a really solid bloke. We have a happy marriage and he has always challenged me to push myself. I wouldn't be where I am today without him always encouraging me to believe in myself. She does too, but mostly in terms of my academic skills.

Increasingly she seems awkward and weird around me, but I feel the same. She shows her love by cooking food but i never turn to her with a problem as she always finds a way to.make my problem my fault "don't you think that if you did/didn't do xxxx, this wouldn't be an issue?". All 'advice' feels like a telling off andni always get a weird feeling that I can't put my finger on it, that she is happy when something goes wrong as it gives her an angle to get her bitterness towards me out. I just have a strange instinct that she isn't on my side.

I remember as a teenager falling asleep on the sofa. My dad would always cover me with aa blanket and there were a few times I would wake up and she would be looking at him with her face twisted, or she would make some comment using a certain tone that I knew what designed to make him feel embarrassed about covering me up. She uses this shaming tone a lone.

When I'm in her company, my heart is always racing and I feel a lot of adrenaline. My mind is always whirring very quickly ahead of every single word I utter to make sure it's completely neutral. She will find some way to make me feel embarassed or told off about literally anything.

I live in a stunning natural area of beauty, which attracts tens of thousands of tourists each year. Last time I was in my hometown, I was with mum and bumped into a lady mum knew. She asked where I lived and it turns out the lady had been and loved it. My mum made a huge deal about how she finds [place] very boring and much prefers [opposite of place]. She was acting so weird that the lady turned to me with such a perplexed look on her face and said to me 'what on earth is wrong with her?'.

We have a civil, low contact relationship but I always feel something brewing underneath. I just have an instinct that I can't trust her to show her the real me and have to be on my guard all the time. I don't trust her, and I always feel that she hates my success. She hates that I'm confident (around anyone but her). That I'm popular and make friends everywhere I go.

I never have drama with anyone, I get along with most people, I've lots of loyal friends,l who love me, my colleagues really like me, I'm fun, people say I'm kind and patient. My dad adores me and always tells me how much he loves me. I don't think my mum even likes me.

@Nationaltrustme Sounds very much like my mother, there’s so much exactly the same, and that feeling that she hates you doing well kind of sums it up.
They’re riddled with jealousy, it must be horrible being them.
Very well done on getting away from her, putting in healthy boundaries, and having a successful life. Good for you !

@Nationaltrustme your instincts are absolutely correct, you cannot trust your mum. Does she bring any benefit to your life? Unfortunately we cannot change dysfunctional people, we can only keep ourselves out of punching distance. Sounds like you have a good understanding of what is going on. Absolutely stay low contact.
My mum was the same but my dad stood meekly by while she raged havoc through my life.

For a long time I was living in a weird state cognitive dissonance of having these deep instincts that I didn't like her meanwhile she kept telling me how lovely she was and its only recently, in my 40s, that I realise that I was picking up on lots of things that were, and are, real. She doesn't love me in a normal way. She doesn't see me as a person in my own right. She deeply, deeply resents me but tries to mask it. My dad has called her out on her behaviour many times and he protects me from her a lot. On the other hand, she tends to say things to me away from him. Her most hurtful comments have been said without him in earshot, as I've recently realised. I feel so nervous and vulnerable when it's just us two. I always make sure there is someone else there, even if it's just one of my toddlers.

I'm sorry youve experienced it. How does your mother show her jealousy?

Her views on things scare me too. She sees the world through such a warped lens that I feel completely adrift against someone who is not just a bit batshit but also incredibly arrogant in her views. Her views are all centred around her emotions and her lived experience. She is very deluded about herself and often remarks on how kind she (she has said many unkind things to me in the past), how she's not judgemental (she judges literally everyone- nobody gets away without some kind of character assassination when they leave, even people's very normal, well behaved children). Will talk about how open minded she is and then remark how [racial group] are very [insert derogatory comment].

She has this saying that she pulls out when a certain emotion is elicited, but I don't know which one. It's 'over the top'. It's a catch all criticism but she uses it particularly when people do things for their children, especially if it's something like fundraising for treatment for a child with cancer (it's over the top) or how a woman I know spent a few days in a special cold hospital room with her baby who was born sleeping (it's over the top).

Alternatively, if anything happens to a child, she switches the grief to the parents. Not in the way you think, not the normal grief that you would expect any parent to feel if anything happens to a child. Again, I can't put my finger on it. If something happens to a young person, she always talks about how the mother must feel, but it's said in a way that the child didn't really matter. Similarly, we know of a teenage girl who was in and out of psychiatric hospitals with anorexia. She was very unwell and was around 6 stone (she eventually died). My mum said that she had been incredibly selfish for doing that to her parents. Everything is seen through the eyes of a parent suffering as the main victim rather than the parent suffering because their child is suffering.

I find her quite mad, and i don't know any other way to put that politely. What is worse is that she has no idea, and she thinks she is incredibly balanced and wise. She sees herself as a sage, like some kind of source of immense wisdom but half the time I just think 'what are you on!?'

So I'm struggling either feelings of very, very deep dislike (shall we say). For a long time her physical touch makes me recoil. The feel of her hands or even her shoulders makes me feel disgusted. Even the smell of her deodorant makes me feel like I'm being nailed into a coffin. She would argue that she has been a great mother and she actually called me a monster for trying to talk about the past. I'm never bringing it up again and will never turn to her for anything.

I've had therapy and have come a long way but I have some very extreme, visceral reactions to being in her company. I find it difficult to even look at photos of her and ther were times were I would feel physically ill looking at her in person even though she's an attractive woman, objectively speaking. She makes me blush about everything, stuff I'm not even embarrassed about, stuff that's not even shameful, but she will look at me a certain way or ask me a simple question and I'll go all red. She always notices but never says anything. I can never register her expression but she sees it happening.

I just don't know where to let all of this out.

@Nationaltrustme My mum shows her jealousy in a few ways;

Sulks when I’m happy.
Sulks when I make plans to go somewhere without her.
Bitches about my friends, especially if I’ve been in contact or have made plans with them.
Needs to verbalise her negative opinions of anything and everything under the sun that I haven’t consulted her on (especially relating to decorating, my hair, my clothes, when I get my eyelashes done, basically anything)
Likes reminding me that I’m single, and the glaring character faults which have led me to be so.
Has never supported me in terms of education and work (doesn’t think I should work at all in fact, didn’t agree with me sitting exams when I had a small child).
Actually tells me she’s not interested when I’m talking about any success, failure, problems, drama, fun stuff related to things I experience outside of our relationship.
I could go on !

Welcome to the gang @Nationaltrustme - your visceral reaction to your mother tells you everything you need to know. It's self-preservation. A lot of what you describe will be all too familiar to regular posters here. I purged my house of any reminders of my (late) mother. They just make me feel sick.

@Moaning5 Sounds like we have the same mother!

Once I hit my late teens my mother became so obviously jealous of me. She actually used to say 'When I was your age I didn't get to *insert harmless normal young woman activity' and then sulk. So of course I would either end up not doing said activity, or not enjoying it because I felt guilty. I remember wailing to my boyfriend when I was 18 'it's like she's jealous of me!'...which of course she was, but I was too young then to believe/accept that that was indeed the case.

She expected me to be a clone of her - get married very young, have 3 children very quickly and then be a stay at home mother, have my wealthy husband fiancially support me for the rest of my life. I only managed the first one on that list, got married when I had just turned 21, realised within 6 months I'd made a massive mistake and was divorced before I was 25. I'm now 55 and she still makes it pretty clear that by not giving her grandchildren I'm a massive disappointment to her. I've been low contact and lived on the other side of the world from her for 30 years.

@Nationaltrustme your message at 21.26 could have been written by me. I've gone sort of hot with recognition!