January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

I think going NC is the right thing for me for sure but I know that because of my mums age there will be guilt trips etc. Its just the unfairness really of it that she has decided to slander my name and make up lies about me and my siblings both seem to be in her corner. They know she cannot tell the truth about anything but for some reason when it comes to me they believe her. I wouldnt mind but I seem to the only one in the family that tells it like it is (apparently making me rude and abrupt) and I do not lie. I was raised by a woman who is fake as fuck which has taught me the person I do not want to be. Also I have adhd and asd and I just do not function the fake way they all seem to.

Its mildly amusing but sad at the same time that the cousins she contacted are clearly taking her side. Now I do not care for their opinion of me but usually if I posted anything on fb they would comment or like but they seem to be studiously ignoring me. Im not hurt by it but just annoyed that shes gone to such lengths to ruin my name. Its a sad person that has to pull another person apart to feel better about themselves.

Double posting but I have just also gone through a break up with the man I wanted to be with forever. I have spent months pining for him ever sending him messages telling him how I feel and in recent days I have stopped crying for the love I have lost and started crying for the way I have acted. I was not raised in a healthy environment and not shown boundaries at all and I have acted like a total limpet when it comes to a man who has actually shown me his true colours. For months I have been begging him to talk to me and for months I have gotten the silent treatment but this is how I was raised. This to me seemed normal but it is not. It isnt. I know this now and its taken months but when you think back to your childhood and realise how badly they parented then it hits all over again. So much going on in my mind right now. I was about to apologise for the concurrent posts but then I thought fuck it we all know what I am going through because we have all gone through it. Sadly. Its a thread based on fucked up parents and the 'children' who are now trying to heal because of them. This is not an US issue it it the legacy them fuckers have left us with.

My tears have stopped and now my anger is setting in. I felt a deep rage inside me the other day but I was with my therapist and she talked me through it. Its just horrible when you know you are a good person and never asked to be born and then you were born and treated like muck. Its unfair but we are all breaking the cycle so well done to us all 👏

LateNightTalk

No more talk nor taking them to see a counsellor. Joint counselling is never recommended in abusive relationships and you are not emotionally safe enough to take part in such sessions. So drop the rope and ride the wave

@Genuineweddingone
Don't ever apologise for posting. You can post as much as you like and as often as you want to. We get the struggle to make sense if it all.
AND as an outsider I can see your massive steps of progress as you see through the dynamics and have realised your conditioning is keeping you in inappropriate relationships.
It is good you have found your anger . It will spur you on to let the people go who need to be out of your life. x

@Genuineweddingone : Its a sad person that has to pull another person apart to feel better about themselves.

Yep. That's them. And they never change. That's why NC is the only route. Stay far away from them and never re-engage.

@Genuineweddingone I think because we grew up walking on eggshells, smoothing over and making excuses for dysfunctional/toxic families, it carries on through life. We are used to trying to fix what is wrong. We haven't learnt boundaries and when to walk away from relationships/friendships, we keep trying in vain to make it better.
I learnt it much sooner with friends who took advantage but much harder to walk away from the origin of my problem MY FAMILY.
Now when I am triggered by people I dont always know why but I trust my instincts, its uncanny how many are similar to my family, I withdraw completely. I stay away from anyone who NEEDS something from me, I stick with those who love me for who I am not what I can do for them. I am still learning not to 2nd guess my feelings, am I being fair, was I too harsh, is it me or them! that is the special training talking!
Time is a great healer (cliché but true) I had a few relationships that were unhealthy, on some level I knew but hung on for dear life. Every moment we spend on them makes us unavailable to people who love us, make our lives better and dont drain our energy xx

Sorry I didnt see the thread but I would hazard a guess that poster is similar to your sister! it burnt her. Most people just scroll past stuff they dont agree with, have a laugh or think wanker, it does not require a comment.

I would put money on it if I said for instance gambling is a bit daft, the ones wading in will be gamblers!! boiling with indignation.

Waving to any gamblers, not my business what you do with your money it doesnt affect my life. I put £1 each year on grand national in my grandads memory x

Spot on @binkie163 - it took me a long time to see what was happening. I wish I had known then what I know now. The years I wasted.

Learning not to give a shit what people think is so important. If you don't care any more, then there is no power over you.

I also learned to trust my instincts and I can spot dysfunction (often manifesting as bullshit & lies) a mile off.

I have absolutely no hesitation in getting up and walking away from people I don't like. I have no time for vexatious people.

Completely agree with @binkie163 about trusting one’s instincts. I steer clear of weirdos and I’ve binned my previous approach of ‘helping’ as it just drags you into toxicity.

It’s harder to apply this to family as I think we are genetically programmed to try our best with them. No point.

I am exhausted. Was in bed at 9am. Woke at 8am.

Tempted to sack off work, but I’m freelance and if I don’t work I don’t get paid. I’ve lost so much income because of the Hag over the last three years.

Mr Monkey wants a review of her case as she moves between death’s door and rallying. He’s now going in and feeding the witch. Surely this nightmare will end. Her heart is full of fluid, kidneys are failing, she’s been in a hospital bed since 16 Jan.

I want a gorgeous holiday when this shit is over, but I don’t want endless conversations with MM about her end and him rewriting history as I will be tempted to remind him that she was an evil bitch.

Golden Boy is still here. I was hoping he’d fuck off back to Scotland today, but no such luck.

He’s so emotionally illiterate, as yesterday his little girl aged 5 was at the bedside and there were a few occasions when the Hag looked like she was dying. MM had to ask him to send Trophy Wife 2 and their child back to where they are staying.

Delighted to know that they are staying in a pretty foul guest house round the corner. Laughing to myself at the reviews. Wholly fitting. It would seem that he’s not as moneyed as it used to be five star all the way for the twat.

He’s now got in touch with Nephew No 1. Fucking twat. He never paid any attention to his first children.

He used to miss family holidays because it was better to stay at the flash ex-pat house in the Philippines and move in teenage prostitutes - two! - whilst his wife and kids were away.

Punishing lovely SIL through his kid. Eldest nephew - 22 - has mild learning difficulty, more malleable. Younger one thinks his father is a twat and never responds.

@mm
I'm so sorry love x
The re writing of history thing is really hard.
My siblings do/will do this once mum goes.
Sister has already tried.
I have no truck with it.

@Sicario lol I am on a roll this morning, on sofa with whooping cough 😀
I tell myself I am happy now and everything I went through was the lesson/cost for my happiness, utter bollocks but reduces my resentment.
I think a fair bit of bullshit dysfunction online and harder to spot, forums are just another playground. Sharing anonymously online is easier for some of us, no one in real life was going to give me permission to bin my family and I dont want to spoil my playtime/coffee & cake time with friends talking about family shit.

@MonkeyfromManchester it took 2 months of ranting for me to place the hurt and anger where it belonged, it was worth it for the freedom. Whatever it takes for MM to move forward, fantasy rose tinted specs keep you locked in denial, face the truth head on no matter how painful.
Golden bollocks is an absolute peach isnt he 😂what a twat, he didnt fall far from the tree x

@Genuineweddingone
I’m so sorry you’re hurting. You are absolutely right that a toxic upbringing makes relationships really hard. Please don’t beat yourself up about it. I can’t remember whether you are in therapy, but worth discussing with them. Just remember that you are a wonderful mother and made conscious decisions to be that. And post away. This is a brilliant place to offload.

@user8800
Yep, carbon copy of his mother. Absolute selfish entitled abusive fuckpig.

@Spencer0220

Good grief how nasty! I always think with twunts like that that they should walk a mere 10 paces in our shoes. Just horrible. Take care. P.S. You can paint your sister however YOU want.

@AristotelianPhysics
The mental torment is NOT your fault. Repeat. No one has MH issues like that created by themselves. It’s based in trauma. They are doing exactly the same thing to your brother, so it’s a pattern. Having a baby and being unsupported says it all.

@Schneekugel
Matyrdom is one of the weapons. Gets worse as they age. Usually last resort to reel you in. Ignore, ignore IGNORE. Notice how they don’t support you when things are grim. Totally one sided.

@LateNightTalk
Don’t do family counselling. You will feel exposed and vulnerable. They will use it against you. Invest in therapy for yourself. You’re the important one. It’s not your job to try and heal them.

MM will be going back to therapy when this final stage ends. His CPTSD will get worse because of this shit. I want the Fucking bitch dead and buried on every level.

Update on Hag.
It’s terminal. They will restart treatment on her lungs, so she’s comfortable, but it’s not going to save her. Hospital is applying for gov funding for a hospice place. She’s got about a month. My fears of a Lazarus situation are unfounded. I hope Golden Boy ‘I’ve got a Swiss bank account’ makes a huge donation. He won’t.

of course, because Mr Monkey has useless siblings, he’s the one who asked for a doctor meeting. Slave Son is incompetent and has fuck all agency. Golden Boy Fuckpig will be putting all his energy into his Oscar winning performance.

I feel nothing. Just a desire for this shit to be over.

Thinking of you @MonkeyfromManchester. You can bet that it will be dragged out as long and as painfully (to everyone but her) as possibly can be. But you're not alone. We are with you. And, if you ever get the urge, a well-timed whisper of "God and the world will know what you did", I might be tempted... But that's just me.

Sending love, strength and metaphorical gin for what lies ahead. Look after yourself. xx

Thank you all. That poster was quite ruffled when I replied that the world isn't all magic and rainbows. She suggested I was tagging the wrong user, but I wasn't.

In the end I got DNephew a paint by numbers set of 4 complete with frames. I thought it would be especially welcome because space is very limited and he shares a bedroom with his brother, so this is something that can go on his wall.

I shall use that thread for his older brother as some suggestions would also suit him. And Christmas.

Just seen your update Monkey.

Well at least if you know it's a month you can strategise.

Hospices are excellent places. Please avail yourself of all the support they offer.

When my husband was beginning his NC with his mother it was over how she treated my DH as his Granddad was dying. Unfortunately the family eschewed all hospice offered support and it was a horrible death.

I wouldn't even wish that pain on the Hag.

Please send Mr. M all our good wishes.

Thanks MM yes I am in therapy and shes helping me a lot. I can only afford to go every fortnight cos its 60euro a session but I always come out feeling amazing and Im starting to realise now that my 'wonderful' ex was not wonderful he was a walking red flag but I just ignored everything to be 'adored' you know, until he did not adore me anymore.

Just read your hag update, it will be a long month but hang in there.

@REP22 thank you.

i think she might not last that long TBH. She’s very frail. But yep, part of me thinks maximum drama. At least the end of her horrible life is nearly over.

I doubt Slave Son will last much longer as his whole life is trauma bonded with her. Or maybe he will get a Fucking life.

The suffering she’s visited on people is utterly terrible. I live with the consequences as MM’s mental health is terrible. Very tempted by that suggestion. I think I’ll avoid hospice visits if it comes to it.

@Spencer0220 good for you on tackling that shit for brains. Life is not full of effing unicorns for many of us.

my strategy will be to avoid her from now on. I don’t want any more drama. I’ll support Mr Monkey, but that’s it. He’s emotionally literate so I’ll encourage him to access the help he needs. Slave Son will think it all ‘gay’. Because he’s a homophobic twat.

so, DH’s mother made it all about her, rather than making her dad’s last days comfortable. How selfish.

@Genuineweddingone so glad you are having therapy. It’s soooo good. I was training to be a counsellor, but had to drop out because of some Hag drama. Glad you are seeing the red flags. Was he another narc?

im going to do lots of self care for a month. As soon as this is over I’m getting my bloody life back. This shit has gone on for three feckinng years.

@MonkeyfromManchester not a narc no but very secretive with things, i dont think i have ever seen his phone, just little things i am looking back on now. A tiny bit manipulative but also no commuication when anything goes wrong just stonewalling which he knew drew out the worst in me. Apparently my hissy fit on holiday last year was the nail in the coffin for him but it was only my response to his disrespect that caused it. Its funny how one day you wake up and just feel stronger. I am hoping this is a breakthrough for me. Never had my heart broken before because I was never in love before, my ex husband was pretty much just a stepping stone to get away from the family home.

@MonkeyfromManchester very unfortunately yes.

It was one of the worst things I have watched. I wasn't there because we weren't travelling during a Covid pandemic, when we were advised not to go anywhere long distance unless essential. DH deemed being at a bedside non essential.

He died in pain without any of the comfort care he should have been afforded.

What makes it utterly hilarious is that they ridiculed my DH for taking over my very demanding care (I'm fully hoisted and at that time was on huge amounts of diazepam and non verbal) and yet as soon as Granddad was dying they decided for him that he was refusing all care. They would do everything.

I begged them to accept hospice visits for pain relief as GPs are not experts in palliative pain management and they refused to allow these visits. The Gp was enough.

I heard him in the background on phone calls. It was utterly harrowing. Nana clearly couldn't manage his needs.

I'm glad my DH didn't go up there. He would have phoned social services and demanded a safeguarding visit.

Hi everyone, dipped in and out of this thread a few times over the years.
Been NC with my parents for 6 1/2 years now. I think I’m finally moving on and then my life gets a bit stressful or something triggers a forgotten memory and it all just comes back.
I’m not convinced I’ll be able to put it all behind me until they’re no longer around. Think I’m still waiting for my Mum to do something awful. She doesn’t know where I live and she’s blocked on everything but she’s extremely manipulative and sneaky. It’s probably all paranoia in my part.

@MonkeyfromManchester sounds like freedom is just around the corner. Then block the brothers [wankers] and live your lives.

I'm so sorry that happened :(

I'm keeping my mouth shut re: fil and his odd decisions re; vulnerable family members. He told one to take off their falls alarm as they kept pressing it by accident and he was called. Then, they had a catastrophic fall...no shame at all from him. They died.
If you don't want to be the on call person SAY SO
Don't tell a vulnerable person to disarm a safety device because you can't be bothered!

@Spencer0220
OMFG that’s AWFUL. Truly.
Much as I dislike the Hag, her being in a hospice where they are expert IS the best solution for everyone.

@NeedAnUpgrade

Mr Monkey is still in contact with his toxic family and I know that if he has a setback it triggers all the hideous memories. You’ve been in fight and flight mode all your life, so not surprising it triggers your fears. Take care.

@binkie163
I can’t see him having anything to do with Golden Boy post-funeral very consciously. NO love lost there. Different with Slave Son, but I can’t see MM seeing him every week for a pint. Feel sorry for Slave Son as he’s devastated, he’s not the type man who has friends where he can talk to his friends. They’re emotionally illiterate. I’m not taking his crap on, but he’s very independent.

@user8800
FFS. Ghastly.

Feeling better now the end is in sight. Just so tired by it all. In bed! Will get through the month - if that - and then start planning getting my life back. MM is relieved, but very, very tired.

Her life could have been so much better. She made bad choices, revelled in it, wore it like a badge of honour, and terrorised her husband and sons, and emotionally abused me and my sister in law. No loss to humanity. I don’t sympathise, only with some of her victims.