January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Do not subject your children to them AristotelianPhysics. If your parents are too difficult, toxic, batshit for YOU to deal with, it will be the SAME deal for your kids also. Your children need emotionally healthy adult role models and they do not fit the bill.

It’s likely your own FOG is making you think your children could have some form of relationship with them. It’s also very likely that they would use your children as a conduit to further get back at you by trying to steal their heart and minds.

Sadly Attila you’re right. One example… my son is 13 and very artistic. He loves to paint and create things. Which is lovely. He is also just a child and not an expert at it… which is obvious…

My parents got a new painting a few months ago. My Dad sent my son a picture of it and asked my son to recreate it.

He recreated it and sent my Dad the picture. My Dads response was ‘it’s good but it’s not quite right. Can you do it again?’. My son was devastated. Nothing is ever good enough for those cunts.

What I find really sad is, I grew up in 1960's-70's I don't think people knew then that fucked up parents create fucked up kids and it's for life but certainly from the 1980's society knew.
@MonkeyfromManchester I think I would have puked at GB, hope those bananas had a few spiders in them.

Oh monkey how did you keep your tongue over golden balls and his treatment of your sil and nephews. I really couldn’t have kept quiet.

news here out of the blue. Got a text from an unknown number - picture of my elderly dad with a huge case of expensive wine and a message .,,, thank you so much for the wonderful birthday present. Love you lots xxxx

I deleted my fathers number 3 years ago. They haven’t seen or responded to us in 13 months. I dropped off Christmas presents on December 2022 and birthday presents and never even got a thank you. This case of wine was not from me.

I’m trying to work out what if anything to do. But it has shocked me.

trigger warning sensitive subjects below involving suicidal thoughts.

Unfortunately I ended up going for breakfast, ashamed I caved.

My mum actually did say sorry, hugged.me and looked like she was going to cry which is highly unlike her. When me and my dad got a few mins alone he told me my mums mental health was shot. I did know she had bad mental health due to menopause and generational trauma etc. However apparently he's saying its the worst its ever been and she's have thoughts to off herself.

I text dsis after the meeting and asked if she knew. She said she didn't and thought it odd that it wasn't mentioned.

Now part of me feels my dad was trying to gain sympathy from me to my mum. Another part knows she struggles with mental health and I am actually worried. However dad also knows my struggles atm and to put this on me isn't fair. I'm not her parent, I'm also not her counsellor.
She is the most stubborn woman in the world and will not accept any help or go get any help. So there's little I can do apart from sit and worry

Oh that’s a tough one. People say NC and it easy to say it via a message. But I struggle so hard with NC. So I get why you caved.

Insist on boundaries. If they contact you - think about what is good for you not them

@AttilaTheMeerkat
I suppose Dumb and Dumber’s care will save a few bob off the estate, eh? That’s so foul. I’m glad you are able to be the decent person caring for Nice Aunt.

@user8800
The upper circle or even better standing gallery seats were made for these trying occasions. The whole horror show of the Hag’s decline - endless Fucking decline - began in a theatre in December 2019 so I’m liable to cross myself and clutch garlic when passing a theatre these days.

Rhetorical question, but why does your mother want to spoil a nice time out?

I feel like screaming at the Hag “you have your shit life, but let the rest of us have fabulous ones, so just fuck off.”

I’m so sorry you’re having a tough time. You must be exhausted. Can you snatch some “me time” before you crumble?

@AristotelianPhysics
I’d definitely consider that as an option, as well as getting as low contact has you can go. Be warned they will either ramp up the shit in rage or be sickly sweet (which doesn’t last) when you start tapering off contact.

My mother Mummy Monkey has fulfilled the role of human shield on many an occasion when we’ve dealt with the Hag (my partner Mr Monkey’s vile mother) My mum signed off a text once with ‘love, The Human Shield.’ My mum is very 1950s boarding school and liable to be very brisk when dealing with self-indulgent drama.

Heartbreaking reaction to your son. I’m so sorry.

@binkie163
I hadn’t thought of spiders. Excellent MN thinking!

@IAAP
I don’t know how I didn’t punch him TBH. I’m still raging about him.

That’s some game playing. Probably your dad ‘mistakenly’ texting you. Block the number. Don’t rise to the provocation. Hugs to you.

Mightily fucked off at Monkey Towers.

I can just see this hag dying lark going on for weeks. Mr Monkey is exhausted as he’s basically running the show. I’m terrified she’s going to rise like Lazarus and get out of her hospital bed and run toxic rampage once again. The logical bit of me is “no, monkey, it’s curtains for her, she’s really fading and that’s why the medical staff are saying we’re at a palliative stage.”

Today I’ve been hanging out with Mummy Monkey doing odd jobs, but we dropped Mr Monkey at the hospital.

I couldn’t resist going to the ward to catch another gripping episode of Toxic Family.

Trophy Wife 2 is now being employed by Golden Boy in direct competition with Mr Monkey in the round of tissue and wet wipe application to the Hag’s face.

Golden Boy thinks that caring duties of any kind are strictly for the ladies, and the fact that Mr Monkey is a dab hand with a wet wipe confirms that MM is indeed the raving homosexual that his family called him when he was growing up - god knows how he managed it - into a kind and sensitive person.

We also have The Yoghurt I Bought My Mam Is Tesco’s Finest.

The box of Ferreo Rocher made me laugh. She’s got a Fucking oxygen line in, mate, and is on soft foods.

And the best yet Competitive Cuddly Toys.

Nephew bought his grandmother a cuddly bear when he was here the other week. Today that bear had been moved from the Hag’s side down the bed and replaced by the gift of ‘a bear from Adorable Granddaughter’.

Nothing with Golden Boy is not a competition. He is such a Fucking dickhead. If anything was genuine with the utter twat he would have brought gifts yesterday.

I loved the way Mr Monkey who is big on fair play moved the Threatening My Male Fragility As It Reminds Me Of My Ex-wife Bear back up the bed.

Wine open at 6pm.

@IAAP the text and photo, classic hoovering technique. It is designed to get a response, try not to rise to it, delete the mssg and block.
I had years of my parents hoovering it is crafty beyond words. We are not wired the same way as them, if you respond they think it's a win. I had always been aware of my parents behavior patterns but once I read up on hoovering it actually made sense. They are bastards x
@Bringonthesun24 your dad is playing you. My dad thought nothing of turning on the tears to guilt me to engage with my mum. They will do whatever it takes. Even if she is really ill, it's not your fault. You can't treat children like shit and expect them to drop everything and come running.....well actually they do.

Omg @mm 😲

I don't understand my mother. I never have, and I never will.

No doubt tomorrow will be icy as she will blame me for her sore neck (I did offer to swop seats, but then she'd have been sat in her own in the middle of a row....)

I might even tell her all the seats are sold out next time!

Grrrr

My goodness. A lot of Stately Homers really going through the ringer at the moment. I'm reading everyone's posts and really feeling for you all.

Seeing how so many are twisting themselves into knots trying to traverse these hideously dysfunctional family dynamics and getting kicked in the teeth time and time again.

The only way for me was NO CONTACT.

I didn't plan it. I didn't explain it. I just had one day visiting my mother's house where Highly Toxic Sister was lauding it with her MIL and decided I couldn't stand it for a moment longer. I said to my mother "I'm sick to death of being slagged off and I'm done." And I walked out of that house and never saw or spoke to any of my fucked-up Family Of Origin again.

Then I stopped answering the phone, threw all post from any of them straight in the bin, then moved house with no forwarding address.

I had many wobbles - but @AttilaTheMeerkat kept me on the straight with brutal advice which always turned out to be right on the money. Do not engage. Do not go back.

@MonkeyfromManchester - the theatricals you describe are so fucking typical of the toxic family dynamics that play out alongside the purported death scene. You are right to keep your distance. What a shit show. And GB needs a full-on bullock-punch. He is doing the Performance Son/Husband with his (no doubt obedient) replacement wife.

Sending solidarity to all.

Excuse me for wanting a rant about something elsewhere on Mumsnet.

I posted asking for help for a suitable gift for dnephew.

I got one poster ranting about how I always attack my sister.

Some people can be so mean

What the fuck? Have they trawled through your posting history? Weirdo.

@Sicario once you go NC it's so bloody obvious. I had a screaming argument with my narc mum and enabler dad, I just hung up half way through and knew I would never talk to my parents or siblings again.
I have graduated from stately homes as narc mum now gone, so grateful I was NC.
Like everyone else I thought there had to be an easier way but there really isn't. It was also an energy issue for me, they were using up my time, energy, headspace and didn't care if they were a nuisance or intrusive in my life.
The only way to get peace is to stop playing the game, you are either in or out, there is no middle ground dealing with toxic families.
Attila must get frustrated because every time someone says they can't do NC means they are still playing the toxic game. It took me a while to realize that.

binkie163 I think you’re right. Even limited contact means the abuse can continue. I so wish we didn’t live in the same small town. It would be so much easier. The likelihood of me bumping into them is huge if I went NC.. and would be so awkward. I did go NC with them when I was about 18 (after they ‘evicted’ me from the house because I was pregnant) and I bumped into my mum in the shops… it was so awkward.

@AristotelianPhysics it becomes less awkward with practice. Cross the road, look straight through her, leave the shop. I had a friend locally who's drinking spiralled out of control, I did everything I could to help her but she became a real nuisance, phoning non stop, turning up drunk at my house. It was really triggering because she was behaving like my mum, I blocked her number. I don't even flinch if I see her and I have a real fuck off face so she keeps her distance, I can be a bit aggressive. I have heard she has since stopped drinking so maybe I did her a favour, being kind to her didn't help. It is hard for some of us because we want a quiet life, we don't want to be rude and that's why we are so easily taken advantage of xx

@AristotelianPhysics I guess they must have. I know I don't paint my sister in a very good light.

I'd love to do NC but worried about the fallout. Do you then go NC with anyone who isn't happy about your original NC decision too?

It's the headspace for me too Binkie. I'm tired of life revolving around other's wants and being expected to ignore my own needs.

Is being a martyr part of the toxicity? I don't get anger any more, probably because I won't tolerate it (I've never done anything wrong when it occurs), but I do get a lot of attempts at guilt tripping and "poor me" from the parent.

I can't stand the manipulation either. I feel every conversation is an attempt to extract personal information from me that I don't want to give (because I'll be judged and found wanting) and they don't need to have for any reason at all. An ordinary conversation seems impossible.

I agree with you on many levels @binkie163 - going NC is the only way to break the toxic circle. My mother died summer 2022 and her departure hailed a welcome seismic shift. Like you I had been NC and had no regrets about not seeing her before she died.

Highly Toxic Sister really ramped up the hideous narc behaviour in the aftermath but once everything was dealt with, she became impotent. It was like watching the witch out of the wizard of oz melting in the water. You wouldn't believe the text messages I got from her, or the ranting phone call, but then again I expect you would. As would other veteran Stately Homers.

I maintain zero contact with my siblings and that will never change.

@Schneekugel I'd love to do NC but worried about the fallout.

The worry. The feelings of dread. The FEAR, OBLIGATION & GUILT....

These are all caused by the toxic relationship.

I suppose one can liken going NC to jumping out of an aeroplane alone, trusting your ripcord will work, and hoping that you can guide yourself to a relatively soft landing. You might hit a couple of trees on the way down but hey, that's blind faith for you.

I definitely went through a long period of bereavement, and had to weather the total shit storm of hate campaign and smearing that followed. It just went to prove that toxic people never change. If anything they get worse.

When you stop dancing to their tune, the soup really hits the fan. But so what? My attitude was, well they can all fuck right off because I'm done.

Life has been totally onwards and upwards ever since.

@Schneekugel I had been low contact for years by the time I went NC. I had been pushed way beyond my limit and mid phone call I just thought fuck it, I'm done and hung up.
I no longer gave a shit about any fallout, tbh how could any fallout be worse than putting up with the bullshit.
I had 2 months of tears, anger, rage, constant internal conversation, going over and over it, it was exhausting and then I just walked out of the fog.

I no longer cared. My mum was the queen of poor me.

That was such a weird and unpleasant post. Reported and deleted now. You sound like a lovely aunt.

Have posted a couple of times in these threads and took a lot of advise on board

I'm also fearing NC is going to be the way forward. I've tried a couple of times to arrange and talk with my parents to clear the air but nothing is ever good enough to agree on. They're caught up on the poor us game and can't see any wrong in any of their actions or words leading to the fall out.

I feel at a brick wall

So do I try one more time to arrange a 'talk'?

Do I invite them to a family counsellor I've found? (Twice before rejected the idea)

Or do I just give up and ride out the wave?

So do I try one more time to arrange a 'talk'?

I did, and although my sister listened to me, she told me (again) how much I'd needed her interference and intervention in my life, to supposedly ensure that my children were safe. So according to her I was wrong to have questioned her authority.

It just made me feel worse tbh. And it didn't stop her from further interfering in my life and deeply upsetting my children (and me).

So I decided to go NC. It was the best thing I could've done.

And for the avoidance of doubt, all of my four children despise both their aunts.