January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@Bringonthesun24 my dad was the enabler, it was really hard when I realised how manipulative he was, just not as obvious as my mum. They tagged teamed me for years.
@FreeRider The concept that her and her needs may not always come first to everyone never occurred to her.
Amen to that, I def struggled to understand, saying NO meant WW3 !
@scoopdewhoop I always thought that as my family got older (I am 63) that we would at some point behave like normal people. With age & wisdom!! my mum got much worse, it has taken me a long time to understand the narcissism, the kinder I was, the more she demanded. My mum was an endless screamer, shouting, smashing things, it was a hideous environment to grow up in.
@Genuineweddingone I never had kids but I have dogs, I would never favour one over the others, I wonder if it is a really conscious decision? we all eat together, walk together, treats and bones together, we all fit on the huge sofa together. It would break my heart if one of my dogs felt scapegoated.
@Parentalalienation I didnt have to tell anyone, the whole village could hear them, my dad yelling he had been cuckolded, god I still cringe at that. Half the village husbands waiting to be named at full volume.
@AristotelianPhysics I was told not to confront my parents but I wanted to give them the chance to understand how I felt. It did not go well and only upset me. Where do you go from here....as best you can, it brings up really deep feelings that are really uncomfortable. It takes time x
@MonkeyfromManchester I bet hag is happier than a pig in poop having golden bollocks attending to her!

Coming out of left field, has anyone here tried 'Somatic Yoga' I do my yoga daily, I want to keep a decent degree of mobility in my later years, mum didnt, lazy cow, so expected to be waited on hand and foot. I havent read 'the body keeps the score' as not sure I can face it but Iv seen trauma yoga being bandied about a lot lately. If I can combine my yoga with a bit of trauma release, result, 2 birds, one stone.

@MonkeyfromManchester thinking of you x

@AristotelianPhysics welcome and I think you'll find your tribe here. I did tackle my parents a couple of times but they rewrite history and conveniently forget things. So we got nowhere. When I finally went non contact I told them why, using examples which had been witnessed by people outwith the family - independent people.
My suggestion would be to not do anything in haste but to look for therapy to help you work through things. And talk to us as we know your journey.

@Escapingafter50years I dont think you can reason with a narcissist, certainly cant win, once they are in victim mode they are in their happy place! I wish I had understood that years ago. Narcs weaponize words and it hurts. Its the old wrestling with pigs, it is exhausting, you get covered in shit and the pig loves it!

@binkie163 I totally agree with you! It all started to make a twisted sort of sense when I started to read about covert narcs. I also wish I'd gone NC decades ago, would have saved me, my husband and our kids so much grief.

Thinking of @MonkeyfromManchester during this stressful time. My "mother" was apparently dying last March, wasn't going to last the weekend etc. Then she "made it", but was going to pass away a few weeks later. She's still here!! But the rollercoaster was no fun, so I feel for you and Mr Monkey.

Also sending caring thoughts to everyone else, suffering this abuse is horrible, but it is so nice that there are people here willing to support each other.

And the same as playing chess with a pigeon.

They just knock the pieces over, then shit on the board.

Also sending caring thoughts to everyone else, suffering this abuse is horrible, but it is so nice that there are people here willing to support each other

Yes. I'm glad I found the courage finally to take the plunge and post.
I'd been lurking and reading this board for absolutely ages.

@binkie163

I cannot wait to see the touching bedside scenes. I’m sure the visitation of the Oscar winning devoted son will have perked her up no end. He’s sent a stream of endless texts as he travels down in a Royal Progression from Scotland to Mr Monkey with liberal use of the word ‘mate’ in them. MM who is exhausted hasn’t responded. TOTALLY disinterested.

@Escapingafter50years

If she rallies through this - she won’t - I’m going to suggest that as Golden Boy is her favourite and GB is such an incredibly devoted son that he takes on her care*.

He can move her up to Scotland, install her in his massive house and play happy Fucking families.

I’m pretty sure Trophy Wife Number 2 is much younger as he’ll be lining someone up to care for him. He’s in his late 50s. Countless illnesses, some of which like the ‘brain tumour’ weren’t actually real, but some are.

GB has struck gold as the secret child is a girl, so he’s probably doing a Daddy’s Little Princess love bombing number on her now and then will be a soul sapping demanding twat of a ‘father’ as he ages.

*hopefully, the Hag won’t spot male/female prostitutes, heavy drinking, domestic violence, coercive control, marital sexual abuse, heavy class A drug use. He is a PEACH.

There were four of us sisters to start with.

One of my older sisters was autistic. She's the one I loved and the one who died of leukaemia.

The other two sisters mocked her mercilessly. Well, until she was dying. Then they hovered around her deathbed.

She had three children who were similarly mocked, yet my oldest sister always demanded their presence at a family get together at Christmas, to embarrass then by handing over expensive gifts. My dead sister's children couldn't afford to reciprocate. It was pitiful.

I'll come to what they did to me eventually. It is painful to write it down. It happened over twenty years ago, yet I think about it daily, with desperate sadness and misery.

@TheShellBeach
That is truly awful. I hope you find a way to release that pain and move forward without it dominating your thoughts. I know that is v hard to do. X

Thank you all so much for your kind words.

I must say, the title of this thread is making me laugh. It’s just what my parents would say. ‘But we took you to National Trust houses; it wasn’t that bad!’.

That is the problem with these parents. They minimise and they are in denial. They apparently have no idea what they are doing.

The last few months have been very difficult with the micro attacks and thinly veiled digs and put downs.

Last time I saw them was a few days ago. A few separate digs were made and I’ve been in turmoil over them ever since.

I thought I would text my mum (I can’t speak to her on her own because dad is always there. Dad is the problem whilst she passively accepts it). I told her how suffocated I am feeling and that I feel like I can’t come to the house anymore.

Her reply? She can’t deal with this right now. To be fair, her Mum died in December (she was also a witch) and she had a small operation this week. She also said that Dad probably isn’t aware that he is like this. So that’s ok then? But the thing is… it’s never a good time. It’s never the right time.

I feel like I don’t want to see them or speak to them for a while. I’m full of rage and anger. Sad for the child inside of me.

@AristotelianPhysics My mother's version (I've been no contact with my father for 35 years) is 'But You Visited So Many Exotic Countries' My father was a diplomat and we were bought up wealthy.

I would have much preferred not spending 6 years in third world shithole countries with no schooling (my parents were also tightarses that wouldn't spring the cash to send us to the international schools), no friends, no pets, no extended family, thanks. And I'm sure both of my brothers would have preferred not to have not developed serious medical conditions - my younger brother had (and luckily survived) a heart attack when he was 30. Let alone what the lack of emotional support/socialization did to us...I'm 55 and still struggle to make/keep friends.

Like your parents, my mother has absolutely zero awareness of the damage our chaotic and stressful childhood did to all 3 of us. During that 6 years we moved countries on average every 6 months. My older brother has told his wife that he has no happy memories of childhood...my SIL made the mistake of telling my mother. The only reaction my mother had (still has) was to slag him off and make bitchy remarks like 'oh yes we had him walking 5 miles a day barefoot to work down the coal mines'.... a total lack of empathy. I doubt my mother could even spell the word, though...

I feel like I don’t want to see them or speak to them for a while. I’m full of rage and anger. Sad for the child inside of me.

I wouldn't. Listen to your feelings and give yourself a break from them.

'moving on'= sweep it under the carpet and get back in your place. Parents think they run our lives even when we are in our fifties!

@Genuineweddingone I think you're spot on. She can't bear anyone to do better than her, so she seems to ruin what you have.

@TheShellBeach I'm still laughing at the pigeons 😂
I don't think we ever get over a lot of the stuff but it definitely loses its power when we shine a light on it.
I am sorry for your loss of the sister you loved x the other 2 sound like absolute bitches.

@AristotelianPhysics
I so understand your comment about the rage and sadness for the child inside. I am full of anger and don't have a clue what you do with it. My traditional response is to squash it down but I don't want to live like that anymore. I want to face the truth head on which I have been trying to. do for the last few years. But there is zero chance of addressing it with any family members I need to so.it is so hard to know how to resolve it and lay it down. I feel I am constantly grieving with no end point !

@Parentalalienation that's definitely the meaning behind "moving on".

I can feel myself cracking. My dad's asked us to breakfast tomorrow with them. Last time I stopped talking to mum this scenario happened. I went to breakfast and that's where the smirk happened.

I don't know if to let it go but then distance myself even further. Like a step by step in a way

Would not bother meeting up for breakfast with your mother and her willing enabler. Women like this cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either like they are or are otherwise discarded.

Enjoy breakfast elsewhere instead.

@Bringonthesun24 I agree with Attila. You don't need a repeat performance so go have a nice breakfast somewhere else with people you want to spend time with, rather than people you feel obliged to spend time with.

I feel I am constantly grieving with no end point

OMG yes, yes.
This.
This x 1,000

Grief, grief, grief.
It never lessens.

I recognise that, @TheShellBeach @flapjackfairy. I remember being on a masters when I was 23 and feeling such overwhelming despair. I went to the loos to sob, literally clutching onto a door frame. I hadn't lost anyone in the usual way, but I could identify it as grief.

Many more times since, but that time stays with me as it was so clearly grief, but with no obvious source.

@TheShellBeach

That’s awful. I’m so sorry. Take care. Xxx

@AristotelianPhysics
Great name BTW.
The grim thing with family abuse is you will never get a meaningful apology. If you get one it comes with a ton of caveats. You are right to remove yourself from their orbit and look after yourself. It’s as @freerider says they are brilliant at rewriting history.

@Bringonthesun24
Eschew the ‘Concilitory’ breakfast, hole up at home, put some Netflix trash on and cook up some scrambled eggs. The breakfast you’re offered is about bringing you back into line, it’s not about making any meaningful peace.

Hag hospital bedside scene last night was pure Eastenders. Slave Son, Mr Monkey, and Golden Boy the Prodigal Son, GB’s new family.

Golden Boy laughing away doing the charm offensive AS IF NOTHING LIKE BEING ENTIRELY OUT OF TOUCH FOR SEVEN YEARS EVER HAPPENED. Twat.

Trophy Wife Number 2 is from the Philippines and looks highly embarrassed to be there as she’s never been introduced to the (fucked up) family and now it’s a deathbed meeting.

I would guess she’s in her mid 20s. GB is in his late 50s. There’s a pattern. His former wife, the lovely SIL, is 15 years younger and is from a culture which GB assumed would produce a meek and mild wife. She was pretty meek for a couple of years until she realised her husband had a thing about Russian prostitutes. I don’t think the STD helped keep her compliant either. She is a veritable tiger now.

The little girl is five, really cute. Hag is beaming as GB and ‘my beautiful granddaughter’ is here. I doubt she acknowledged Trophy Wife 2 as she is competition.

It was a flying visit from me as I couldn’t deal with the hypocrisy of it and I can’t Fucking stand Golden Boy. I feel SO angry on SIL’s behalf as GB treated her like shit. As did Hag. He has done nothing for his sons.

Hag is probably under the illusion that GB is going to whisk her away to Scotland and she will live out her last days lovingly doted on by her toxic fellow narc son. Trophy Wife 2 will cook her meals, be available for Hag to be toxic to and the little girl will be a never ending narc supply.

obvuously, GB will fuck off today and not be seen to the funeral.

I strongly suspect he’s not as minted as he was once as he’s staying in a guest house rather than the five star hotel he used to stay in Manchester. So, the visitation is probably underpinned by some money grasping.

I popped back later with Mummy Monkey and some bananas for the witch. It was very obvious that Mr Monkey, mummy monkey and I were heading out for food - there is nothing in our house - so Hag, despite being able to say very little, was seething. Throwing evil looks at my mum, giving me some classic shade, whispering to Mr Monkey ‘don’t leave me’. We left and she gave me an incredible death wish stare before I went. Fucking hell, she is NASTY. I just stared her down.

The best thing was Golden Boy sending Mr Monkey a text last night saying ‘well done, mate, on the way you’ve looked after mum.’

Mr Monkey didn’t reply. Just laughed and had another glass of wine.

Golden boy reminds me of Dumb, he’s a lot like that with all the chat.

Dumb and Dumber have decided that they’re going to “care” for their mother on their own with no further input required from anyone else. So we’re being shut out and otherwise ghosted. No great loss there. We will still continue to visit Nice Aunt

God, eastenders is right @mm!

Well, mum spolit the outing yesterday. I thought she's be on best behaviour as golden boys child was also there but no...

Face like a slapped arse. Had to be encouraged to wait and see my dc. Moaned about the seating (accessible due to her disability) and just generally being an old bitch.

So...in future I shall NOT book accessible seating. She can bloody struggle up the stairs. I will also not sit with her. (Oh dear, tickets had sold out on that row!)

Grrrr

She's SO rude and ignorant! Walked right past my sil and didn't speak.
Argh.
Tomorrow's visit will be brief !

I feel I am constantly grieving with no end point

Oh god I feel that. Grieving for my child self. Grieving for a childhood that I never got but should have got. Grieving for lack of emotional availability that plighted my life. Grieving because it will never change and

I’m at the point of feeling that no contact is the best way forward; whilst making sure our children have somewhat of a relationship with them but scared of my parents damaging them.

So much overthinking. I’m tired, guys.

user8800 your mother sounds insufferable! These parents only truly care about their own needs. They cannot bear to think about other people and what they might want. I hope all goes okish for tomorrow.

Has anyone decided that if they do see their parents they don’t see them on their own? My parents behave if my husband is there. If my husband isn’t with me (which is often the case) they start trouble. Going no contact is pretty much impossible as we live in the same town but maybe the next step is minimal contact but always with my husband? They don’t play up when he is around because they know he won’t take their shit.

Thank you x

Re: meetings. I don't see pils - specifically fil - now without dh present.

Too much abusive water under the bridge.

And - I'd be interested to know if other stately homers experienced this - it was the lockdowns that really made me see how awful their constant expectations of attendance/interest/rules actually were.

I felt free for the first time in 20 years :(

Then at the 1st family get together after lockdown fil really showed his true colours in front of witnesses

So dh knows any and all interactions with pils going forward are on my terms. He can do what he wants. Although, oddly, he doesn't see them as much since covid either 🤷‍♀️

I've had a dreadfully stressful 2 weeks regarding one of my voluntary roles, which has strengthened my resolve to step down in a few months.

Dh is still stressed due to work restructuring. Dc2 had an awful year last year re: identity/teen angst and dc1 is trying to decide what to do post university.

I am the sounding board for all of them ^ and I'm really, really tired.

Mum is in for a shock if she thinks I'm going to put up with her bullshit for much longer...