How I feel about men in my 60's.

[Gettingbysomehow]

I don't feel I am half a person waiting for the other half to fulfill me. i am a whole person and don't need anyone else.
I've been married and divorced three times, all of my husbands drained me and marriage never sat easy on my shoulders, and this is why.
It's only taken me 60 years to realise this.
Anyone else feel the same?

I must confess that as a man in my 40's, I do not directly recognise much of what I read.
That said, I do think there was a massive problem with many women seeing their worth in their relationship, which is only 50% in their control. What I would question is how much men benefit from this tragedy.

I have had partners that would confidently say they did all the housework.
One was so confident that I hid her presents in the cleaning cupboard and she would never find them (she thought she opened it regularly so would not look in there).
Another thought we should not buy a dish washer as it was me that me that needed a rest. As a trial, I stopped "helping" her wash the dishes and in two days we had not a single clean item anymore.

The boomer generation of women certainly had husbands that relied on them for housework, I am not sure I believe it for the next generations as a general rule.

But that is pretty trivial. The thing I found hardest was partners who believed they needed the relationship to work, but could do nothing to help. They would want me to be relaxed when they came home, but would also yell at me when they had a bad day (the relationship being responsible for their happiness). They would want a clean house and me not to have to do all the cleaning, but only feel able to do it on an emotional level. When I had a family tragedy or serious illness, they would feel betrayed.

The other side is that all my friends seem lovely to me and to treat women well. I would no tbe friends with them otherwise. I am probably being naive about a few of them.

@Sweden99
"I must confess that as a man in my 40's, I do not directly recognise much of what I read"

You don't recognise or don't want to recognise?
Men consistently overestimate their contribution to the running of a household. If anything it's worse than the boomer generation. At least the deal for many wives was then that you get to stay at home and run things while he earns money.
Now for Gen X-ers and beyond, we often earn the same wage and work the same hours as our husbands but still have the lions share if household work.
It's a shit deal. Men tend to leave and have an affair when they are called out on it. Accusations usually include the words nagging and controlling.

I have lived in shared households, on my own and in relationships and in a few nations.

When I lived in Britain, my British women house mates would say I did nothing and could not cook. When I moved to Scandinavia, it was completely the opposite, and it was not me that changed.

In Belgium, I heard exactly the same things as in Britain and I assumed it was the same. My my date had been gossiping with her friends about this man who kept his place clean and tidy without a maid and could quickly throw a meal together when needed.

Even in house shares, I had British women convinced I could not do anything and the continental women see me the oposite way.

I successfully hid an SO's presents from her by hiding them in the cleaning cupboard. She thought she cleaned regularly, so would not have thought I could hide anything from her in there, no more than you could hide my present in the driving seat of the car.

I went to marriage counselling, and I must say the Danish attitude to emotional labour was basically to call it nonsense. As I did the housework physically, it was not taken seriously that my then wife did it on the emotional level.

I experienced this also when I was being genuinely cared for. I was exhausted from long hours long commute, cooking and cleaning. Then we got some money and ai really wanted a dishwasher. My SO was being caring and suggested I should but myself time off, which is what I thought the diswasher was. I then found out she thought she did pretty much all the dishwashing (this was really bizarre). We agreed a week long trial, in whch I would sto "helping" her with the dishes and if she was doing them all OK we woudl not buy the dishwasher. Three days later, there was barely a clean item in the kitchen and I bought a dishwasher. It saved me lots of time.

I think men exaggerate and genuinely fool themselves in how sexually capable they are, how strong and how brave. My impression is the UK is there is double pressure on women, there is little pride in housework, but lots of shame in not doing it.

I noticed how many of my married friends (female) gave up work in their early fifties or never went back to work full time after children. Lots of them depend on their husbands for so many things. My next door neighbour's Dad has just died and she has complained that her mother cannot drive ( she learned but stopped years ago). She cannot pay bills. Her husband did most of the shopping and cooking.
She is not unusual. I always worked full time apart from four years when my children were little. So many of my friends dabbled in work and gave up early.
Posters on here talk about cock lodgers but most of the non working people I know are women. This is backed up statistically. There is an expectation amongst many posters that their husbands will provide financially for them. They use the excuse that they are caring for elderly parents. Except it is always her parents she cares for . Her husband is expected to work full time, manage money, do diy and domestic chores and visit his ageing parents occasionally. Helping with his parents etc is wife work and should never happen according to MN.
I married fifty years ago straight out of university. My husband is wonderful, intelligent, funny and kind. I love him so much. I would never remarry because no one would ever match up to him. We also have shared everything for so long. It is such a comfort. He is such a comfort.

Yes and they are foolish not to learn how to do these things. I have to do all financial stuff for my mum because she has no concept of how to do it.
Most women bear the load of caring roles for elderly parents on both sides.(in laws included)

Few of my friends care for elderly in laws. Yet, so many of them have never really had a serious job. They are often hugely involved in the lives of their own parents. I noticed how many of my friends made a condition of marriage that they always spent Christmas with her parents not his. They then claim that looking after her elderly parents is a reason for not working from fifty onwards. I have two close friends ( female) who never went back to work after children.
I was unusual in working full time until my mid sixties amongst my female friends.

Most of my friends still work full time age 59 or 60. One or two have retired but not many. I am 60 and only need to work part time.

It must be another generation as all my friends are quite capable of sorting out paperwork and money etc.

Ditto. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t still work full time in their 50’s and early 60’s.

My parents generation were very different in that the woman stayed home with kids and was dependent on the man but my generation are very self sufficient and independent. In fact I was far better at sorting out the paperwork etc than my ex

It was mad how rigidly gendered many marriages made in the past (60s/70s even) were - it rendered many people completely helpless after a death/divorce. Men couldn't cook, iron, keep house, many women were unable to drive, deal with paperwork, do the most basic DIY. I always found it mindboggling that my mother was so much better educated than my dad, who left school at 14, and yet he handled all the life admin, money, insurance, bills etc. She floundered in so many practical matters when he died and 'your dad always did all that' was her constant refrain. She couldn't even use a lawnmower or write a cheque. And if it had have been the other way round, he would have needed a housekeeper because he had been waited on for four decades.

@SamW98
Literally the first poster after you , she says she is 60, works part time

TBF, she might not personally know that poster.

The retirement age for women is 68. How many women do you know who are still working in their middle and late sixties. Statistically, women give up working earlier than men

My paternal grandparents marriage was so traditional that if you put my grandad on the kitchen and said find the washing machine he would be opening the fridge, cooker etc - he wouldn’t have a clue!

After my gran died, my parents used to buy him M&S ready meals and write sticky labels on them saying what day he had to eat by and how to cook. In the end the bought him a microwave because the cooker confused him.

And this was an intelligent man who worked as a transport manager most of his adult life.

My own dad is 81 and tbh he’s pretty crap around the house. My mum was a pretty traditional housewife for many years but discovered late onset feminism and is really self sufficient. It’s a shame because if my mum was born 20 years later, her life would have been completely different. She’s said that she envies the fact my sister and I had so much more choice and freedom

As I said everyone I know - I’m talking my personal circle.

But most my friends have pretty professional type jobs and took their careers seriously so maybe more likely to continue working.

Yes I often find it odd that there's this stereotype of women desperate to be in a relationship 'trapping' a man.

In my experience most men want to be in a relationship but want all their mates to be single so they can have the best of both worlds.

I can see with my own parents a similar pattern (sans the late onset feminism).
My Dad is losing his confidence, which is a great shame as he was genuinely unusually clever. But he can barely manage housework and increasingly it is my Mum who is becoming more tech-savvy (my Dad loves technology, but it is an unrequited love).
My Mum takes things like this thread at face value. That I knew how to iron and cook yet rarely had a SO that could do either of these things was freakishly unusual to her.

I am in my seventies and worked full time until 65. Professional job. I do four days a we very part time job in education on the other day. I am unusual statistically when most women choose to retire before men even though statistically we out live men.

I think women retire earlier because they have full lives OUTSIDE work - friends, hobbies, grandparent stuff they want to do

Men stay in work til retirement and then die quickly or become depressed because they've not developed the opportunity to have lives outside work - the ones who do well play sport like golf and take up hobbies

Most of my friends 50+ are single so if they don’t work there’s no one else to pay the bills.

My mum went back to work part time when my sister and I were at secondary school and worked up until she was 65. She would have gone on longer but her knee needed replacing and she couldn’t stand on her feet all day any more - she worked in M&S.

Though a few of her former colleagues retired and go back as Christmas temps as they still enjoy the work and camaraderie but don’t want it all the time.

There’s a huge difference in my parents lives which has become so much more noticeable since lockdown.

My mum is always out meeting friends for lunch, mooching round shops etc. Whereas my dad is happy to sit home and watch tv.

During the Covid restrictions my mum would meet friends and sit in the park with a sandwich and a coffee chatting. I used to take her out to lunch and we would sit in a beer garden with lunch and a glass of wine. My dad was invited but never wanted to come.
Like many men of his generation, his social life revolved round the pub and not having that in lockdown he became very insular and I don’t think he’s ever really recovered from that.

It’s so sad as he’s an intelligent man who had a good career but since retirement it’s like he’s a shell of his old self.

My one and only DH did both. I was nodding in agreement at the poster who said she knew at 17 that she was a whole person without a man (sorry if I'm misquoting) and with hindsight wish I'd had the confidence at 25 to admit the same. I was divorced at 37 and haven't bothered with men romantically since (now late 60s). Too much effort for too little reward.

Thank you for the explanation, I am understanding this now as British women seeming to have greater expectations of their male partners/spouses than Scandinavian or Polish women do?

I cannot say that, I do not know.
I suspect it is that there is more pressure on British women to be Wonder Woman. My Scandinavian SO would say I did the cooking, in the same situation in Britain it was said I had no idea how to cook and would not be trusted in the kitchen. In Scandinavia, there is no shame in not doing it all so they report the same men doing far more.
I suspect in Poland, there can be a little more pride for women in being good at housework than in the UK, so women will actively do more and think it an odd bonus if the men do it. But, I am really guessing here.

I'm a bit of an anomaly too.

My mother was abusive and didn't work. She raised us very strictly and was always at home. She hated it. I think she would have been much happier going out and having a life. She spent my dad's money and rolled in it but she was horrible and unhappy.

I escaped and have always worked. I have no children because I could not afford them basically, and I always suspected I'd be on my own with them at some stage and then I wouldn't have been able to work and then I wouldn't have been safe.

I am OK now, about to turn 50, still working. I've met a man I am considering quite seriously. I have had partners where my life became worse and I didn't do the music I need to do, and my social life suffered. Now I have got my life to an excellent point where I almost own my flat, I love my job, I earn about enough, I can be flexible, I have an excellent social life and do plenty of music. And this man, I want to see how much of a sidekick he is, how stable, how reliable. So far he is proving strong, capable, he tries to do and pay for everything, and he is honest and hasn't cheated. We will see.

I have not given up on men, and I am still very interested in having good sex. But I know myself too well to allow too much change to my detriment. I know I'm going to give up time and I know I probably have more moving stress to go through, where I thought this may be it with my current place. However he is magic and I am getting good vibes, very good.

This thread has been very interesting.

@Jaichangecentfoisdenom having lived in Denmark I wouldn't say that's the case- Danish women had huge expectations of men in terms of childcare etc - however a big difference is in my experience it's rare to get SAHMs - both partners tend to work because tax is high but childcare is very good and very affordable. Therefore there isn't this level of 'well you are at home all day or you just do a bit of part time' - there very much did seem to be a lot of 'take the little one out and I will do the housework' - the amount of men out with toddlers and babies on their own at weekends was huge!