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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it

434 replies

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 17:52

Hi all. Ive come to a realisation lately that has almost brought me close to tears because I have to accept that Im probably going to be single for the rest of my life. Grab a cuppa because this is probably going to be long.

For context, I am a single 33 year old female with my own business, own house, no kids, independent, no baggage, relatively attractive (without blowing my own trumpet) and look young enough than my actual age, have a masters degree, love travelling, open minded, funny (I like to think so), clever, lots of friends, love socialising (out most weekends), and I have some depth to me and actually give a shit about things in life that a lot of people disregard, like animal welfare, homelessness etc. In a nutshell, I’m decent.

Here is the boat I find myself in…
I’ve had 3 proper relationships in my life, all no longer than 12 months, 2 of them verbally abusive and cheaters. Ive got a thick skin now and try not to take any shit and I’m aware of potential red flags that may pop up. Ive been on my own for over 5 years now, with little flings here and there. I’ve tried online dating, but the thing is, I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me but open minded to many other things), decent job, decent human being. I don’t care if theyre divorced or already have kids, I’m just fundamentally looking for the bare minimum – to fancy them, initially. I’ve had sexless relationships in the past and its not fun for either party – fancying someone is a must.

Whenever I fancy men in real life, I imagine if they were on a dating site and I ask myself if I’d have swiped for them based just on their pictures and the answer is no, I probably wouldn’t, unless of course they are the ‘conventionally good looking’ type that have had the balls to come over to me on a night out (rarely happens these days, and if it does, they turn out to be a narcissist – hence the macho confidence and charisma). So I know dating sites aren’t working for me, as Im much more likely to fancy someone when I can see the ‘fuller picture’ ie their voice, humour, intelligence, wittiness, their mannerisms etc etc. My theory is that most of the men that are conventionally ‘good looking’ and get the most swipes, are probably lacking in all the areas Ive listed above that are attractive traits, and are more than likely players as they have the pick of the bunch (we are ALL swiping for the good looking ones – and they fucking know it!).
You might ask why I haven’t settled down with the men ive met organically then above, the ‘normal’ ones that have traits I like. Here is where my problem really is – they have clocked on that they are a fucking rarity.

Have you been on a night out recently and looked around? There are about 15 attractive women to every ‘good looking’ man. I believe this is because women naturally take more pride in their appearance than men do, and now that we earn our own money, we splash it on treatments and tweakments. It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023.
Equally, what are men having done? Well, theres the ones who give a shit about their appearance so they might go to the gym 4 times a week (no im not talking about sted heads - yuck), they may splash out in designer gear head to toe (cringe), or the ones with a little bit of class may shop at Reiss instead (better), but you get my jist. They might visit the barber once a week too for a fresh trim. And the rest of them? Nada. No gym, possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about), maybe they haven’t gone shopping for years. But what do both of these types of men both have in common? They both think they are entitled to stunning women.

As ive explained, the ratio of attractive women to attractive men is off the scale. If you haven’t noticed it before, you will now, especially 40 year olds and under. 50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t. You were either an alpha male at 6 ft 2, or you weren’t, and that was ok. You would simply marry up (literally) with someone who was in the same league as you. Now, women are having to lower their bar and accept less than what they deserve, simply because theres so much competition and not enough men to go around. Ask yourself, how many kind, gorgeous, successful, funny, clever, good yet single women do you know? I can bet it’s a lot.

Again, looking back at relationships 50 years ago and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married, and kind of understood the unwritten rule that they needed to ‘keep their man happy’. On the other hand, men kept us happy too. We didn’t need to work and split the finances, we had the luxury of staying at home, cooking, cleaning and raising the kids as regardless of what anyone says, women are more nurturing, emotional, and quite frankly - do a better job of bringing up the children. This worked out fine for men - they went to work, provided for their family (which triggered their hero instinct), and got their dick sucked in return. Masculine and feminine energy intertwined perfectly, sorry feminists, but its true. And the women were happy, until they weren’t.

We then kicked off that we wanted equal rights to men, equal pay, equal jobs, the list goes on, and we got it. We are now a bunch of independent, self sufficient, home owning, driving, single mothers. We’re basically masculine. The men haven’t changed their role though, they aren’t now staying at home, cooking, cleaning and bringing up the kids, they haven’t sacrificed anything but yet they are still reaping the awards. The award – sex.

We somehow have manipulated ourselves into believing that woman need sex like men do (we don’t), and we can sleep around, use men, get our kit off and call it ‘empowering’. It was only empowering when we got the respect we deserved 50 years ago and the mortgage paid. Now, we don’t get called the next day and get pied off for a woman 10 years younger. Men don’t want commitment, period. We nag them, we remind them of their mothers, they have more fun with their friends and we’re a headache to them. The only benefit they have from having a woman in their lives is sex. Period. And we have continued to spoil them with it, with minimal effort from them. We’re lucky if they buy us a plate of food before we do the honour. But we naturally want more, we are wired differently to men, and this is why they USED to meet us in the middle.

But here’s the thing, when we demand more (commitment), the men back off - have you noticed? We get ghosted when we want something in return. Do not let other women fool you into thinking both sexes are getting a good deal by having intercourse, we aren’t. Men inherently need sex, they think about sex thousands of times per day, they even pay for it, and women enjoy it…sometimes, but we don’t inherently need it.
So why on earth are we still having sex freely with men who haven’t earned it, sometimes even with strangers, and blaming being ghosted on countless other reasons? Hes not ready for commitment, hes been hurt before, hes too busy with work, hes avoidantly attached…he’s not. He just doesn’t want to buy the cow when the milk is free.

I personally have took a stance and have stopped having sex with men that haven’t put the bare minimum amount of effort in, to be frank. By bare minimum, I mean he returns my texts, picks me up, takes me out for a few dinners and is nice to me. I’m not asking for a lot. Ive read ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ and ‘The Rules’ – but these books only work with 2 willing participants. It still doesn’t develop into the fairytale romance I had once envisioned on the first date with him, he either doesn’t feel a connection or he’s backed away at the thought of committing.

Some of you will say “not all men are like that”. This is true. Here is my other theory – the ‘other’ men who may be short, insecure, abusive, jobless, homeless, ugly or stupid may be more than willing to settle down with me – you can bet their bottom dollar they are – but I would like someone who brings something to the table, like I do. I won’t fancy a man who is wet behind the ears, who is scared of a hard days work and would be happy to sit at home raising our kids – it’s not masculine and I don’t want it. The ‘other’ men who are none of the things I’ve listed above and are genuinely fantastic men with a lot to offer, raised right and want to commit to a good woman – guess what? THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN. They were taken in their twenties, and they stayed with that woman, because they are kind, loving, loyal men.

The dating pool for 30, 40, 50 something women now is DIER and we are left with the commitment phobes, abusers, narcissists or tons of baggage that we don’t want. The feminist movement along with plastic surgery and ‘empowering’ women has damaged us. We now all offer the same thing to men and they are spoiled for choice. I was chatting with a male friend of mine not long ago who had been seeing a woman who ticked a lot of boxes but she wanted exclusivity before she agreed to have sex. He didn’t want to be exclusive or commit in any way to any woman, so he let her go. I asked him if he was confident if he would find a good woman like her again in the future, he said yes, and I believe him. We are all competing with each other to be the thinnest, prettiest, most enhanced, smartest, richest to bag the best man, and he’s sitting back and laughing at us all climb over each other in desperation. He’s chilled as a cucumber.

My biological clock is ticking, his isn’t. The men aren’t worried, we are. The men aren’t on mumsnet starting threads about women who won’t have sex with them, because we do. But trust me, if we took this big asset away, they would. Have you noticed how many eligible bachelors you know who just decide when theyre about 45-50 that they are ‘finally ready to settle down’? And they find someone pretty much right away, usually 15 years younger, a box ticker, no kids, no baggage and very fucking fertile. He becomes a dad and gets married and everyone goes “ah at last! He finally found -the One!”. No – she isn’t the one who changed him, she was the one who was there when he realised his looks were fading and he better take what he can while he can. Meanwhile, the women he messed around with back in the day are well into their fifties, still single, possibly childless and debating whether to date someone 20 years older who may cherish them the way no man their age ever did. Do I want to date someone 20 years older than me to feel special? No thanks.

I believe if we all took a stance and stopped giving men the one thing they NEED (sex), until they give us what we NEED (love and commitment), things will change. Stop sexting and sending nudes – they used to pay Babestation for that, now we’re doing it for free! Stop allowing them to waltz in and out of your life every other weekend when he feels like it. Stop popping kids out to undeserving men who wont even put a ring on your finger. A child is the greatest gift a woman can give to a man, its priceless and its basically fucking magical. Yet, people are allowing their wombs to be invaded by men who couldn’t give 2 shits about them when it comes down to it. We then raise fatherless children who grow up with daddy issues and the cycle repeats again. We need to raise the bar and say NO collectively, or else it won’t work. The bimbo on Saturday night who goes home with him after one drink (bare minimum) will undo all our hard work.
If the feminist movement hadn’t have happened, I don’t believe relationships would be as dire as they are right now. Its great that we earn the same as men and have our independence, but look at the price we have paid. They haven’t paid any price, nothing has changed for them, infact it only got EASIER. They still get sex and kids, but no bills or commitment – bingo! We have normalised this behaviour and it’s time to put an end to it.

I can turn down a man for sex tomorrow, but he’s not bothered because he always knows this… theres another desperate girl hoping that if she fucks like a pornstar Friday night she will bag him. She won’t. And he will move on to the next. Women look for love, men only fall in love by accident – by spending quality time with a woman. But they can’t fall in love if we give it up too easy when his foot is already out the door.

As you can tell I've given this a lot of thought and I'm disappointed with where I find myself at my age, and where I think the world is heading. Does anyone else feel the same way?

OP posts:
MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 09/01/2024 08:30

I know/have known at LEAST 2 dozen women over the past few decades - who got married before the 1970s, and were pregnant before they were married. Many of them were pregnant on their wedding day

DM was working in the Far East in the late 50s. She was continually being asked to act as bridesmaid for friends who were 'having' to get married because they were pregnant. OP has clearly never heard of shotgun weddings.

GoldDuster · 09/01/2024 08:42

Spain1986 · 09/01/2024 00:27

You have made a lot of valid points. As you say, too many men just don’t make an effort with their appearance which doesn’t help.

I have come to the realisation that I am going to have to seek a man I have no attraction or interest in. It’s just not happening. I haven’t been excited about a man for ages, and it’s not happening ever again.

I will have to try and fake it with the next man who appears. I will practise my acting skills this year. Fairy tales are just that. I stopped believing in those a while back. Take the man who sticks around, as that is as good as it gets. It’s only company after all.

Edited

I think there's a lot of main character syndrome going on here. No life is not a fairy tale but as an adult woman you should have worked that out a long time ago. If you're moving through life as a princess waiting for prince charming you're going to come up against some challenges, finding and meeting a partner probably being only one of them.

Stepbystepfan · 09/01/2024 09:19

Look’s aren’t important to me, I’d prefer to go out with a man with a personality, etc. I am attractive but I never go for the good looking men. I am aware you can be both good looking and have a great personality they are all taken at my age. I fall in love with men who make me laugh, are successful (not necessarily have money), are ambitious and love to spend time with me.

BlueHops · 09/01/2024 12:27

👏good write up

SheFliesLikeABirdInTheSky · 09/01/2024 13:44

ShippingNews · 09/01/2024 04:39

If you want to talk about "women being virgins before marriage", it's more like 70 years ago, around the 1950's. There was no contraceptive pill, and society was very judgemental about single motherhood. Staying a virgin was more to do with society's expectations than anything else.

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain That is nonsense. I have known many women (born before the 1940s,) who were pregnant before they were married, (some were pregnant on their wedding day!) And some already had a baby or two when they were married. There were MANY women who were not virgins before they got married! YEP, even in the 1950s! 😆

As I say, some pregnant women got married and were pregnant on their wedding day. But some women just stayed single and kept the baby, some women had their baby(s) adopted, and some women had the baby raised by her mother. (And the child thought the 'granny' was his/her mother for many years.) This is women who were pregnant in the 1940s and 1950s - and even earlier.

It's utter nonsense that women were virgins when they were married - in the 1950s. Indeed, many women were not virgins (when they got married,) many years BEFORE that.

Some people here are living in a Barbara Cartland novel!Shock

paintitblue · 09/01/2024 14:02

Its great that we earn the same as men

In your dreams.

Opentooffers · 09/01/2024 14:13

You make some fair points. But it definitely was not better in the old days, unless your measure of success is being married- regardless of how depressed women were within that marriage back in the day.
Women have as much right to sex as men, but also need to know that sex does not equal relationship, that really only comes from getting to know someone.
Both men and women are more likely to stick around if they are enjoying each others company. Depends on the person really, if you bring it down to sex only, then yes, men have a world of choice. But bring personality into it and, well, would you want to be with a man not interested in other things you have to offer and would rather chase the next thing?
Don't sweat about the ones who leave for something shiny and new. The ones who hold sex and variety way above any other attributes- these are not the ones you want. I'm sure they are out there more than ever on dating sites - not the best place to find loyalty.
If a DP gets tempted and goes for someone else, they weren't worthy in the first place, they've done you a favour in the long run.

Poppy128xx · 09/01/2024 14:16

No offence OP, but what you have just written is exactly the reason why men aren't interested in you at all. You sound a little up your own arse in the nicest possible way.

bendypines · 09/01/2024 14:26

ShippingNews · 09/01/2024 04:39

If you want to talk about "women being virgins before marriage", it's more like 70 years ago, around the 1950's. There was no contraceptive pill, and society was very judgemental about single motherhood. Staying a virgin was more to do with society's expectations than anything else.

I've done a lot of genealogy in my time. My mother was born six months after her parents' marriage. In 1921. Another ancestor of mine was a servant and was left literally holding the baby and sent to the workhouse in the late 1800's. She did give me a clue though, she gave her baby the same uncommon first name as her employer's adult son. I've identified at least another half dozen illegitimate births in my family tree in the 19th & early 20th century.

But in those days, babies conceived out of wedlock were something to be ashamed of, and covered up. The woman always blamed for it, of course.

ILostMy20s · 09/01/2024 14:49

Maybe I'll be in the minority with this, but I personally don't understand the modern obsession with people's height. Particularly on dating apps, I think there's the danger you just dismiss someone purely on that, when in actual fact, most people would probably struggle to mentally picture the difference between someone who's 5'8, 5'9 or 5'10.

Perhaps that shows I'm just bad at visualising height, but I just think it's such a silly characteristic to dismiss someone over when it has no bearing on who they are as a person whatsoever. I think if you've the sort of person who has one of these ridiculously specific "rules" such as you'd date someone who's 5'10, but not someone who's 5'9, you probably deserve to be on your own anyway.

And unless you're wanting your future child to become a star basketball player, why on earth do you need a partner to be over six foot?

Opentooffers · 09/01/2024 15:23

Lol, I've compromised on height probably too much in the end - there's definitely an attitude if below a certain level. I think 5ft 7 and above would probably be enough for them not to have a chip on their shoulder about it. But I'm shorter. If OP is 5ft 10, it's understandable. A couple of inches taller at least than yourself is reasonable.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 09/01/2024 15:25

SheFliesLikeABirdInTheSky · 09/01/2024 13:44

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain That is nonsense. I have known many women (born before the 1940s,) who were pregnant before they were married, (some were pregnant on their wedding day!) And some already had a baby or two when they were married. There were MANY women who were not virgins before they got married! YEP, even in the 1950s! 😆

As I say, some pregnant women got married and were pregnant on their wedding day. But some women just stayed single and kept the baby, some women had their baby(s) adopted, and some women had the baby raised by her mother. (And the child thought the 'granny' was his/her mother for many years.) This is women who were pregnant in the 1940s and 1950s - and even earlier.

It's utter nonsense that women were virgins when they were married - in the 1950s. Indeed, many women were not virgins (when they got married,) many years BEFORE that.

Some people here are living in a Barbara Cartland novel!Shock

Edited

I'm not sure why you're tagging me, I'm well aware it's nonsense. I'm well aware of everything you said in your post, as well.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 09/01/2024 15:58

Opentooffers · 09/01/2024 15:23

Lol, I've compromised on height probably too much in the end - there's definitely an attitude if below a certain level. I think 5ft 7 and above would probably be enough for them not to have a chip on their shoulder about it. But I'm shorter. If OP is 5ft 10, it's understandable. A couple of inches taller at least than yourself is reasonable.

It shouldn't be a dealbreaker though. Perfect man for you but he's 5'9? Nah get in the bin 🙄

User135644 · 09/01/2024 16:58

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 09/01/2024 15:58

It shouldn't be a dealbreaker though. Perfect man for you but he's 5'9? Nah get in the bin 🙄

I don't see why height makes any difference outside perhaps of wanting a male partner that's slightly taller than you or around equal height at least.

If that's the criteria they demand then so be it, but just on that one thing they're already filtering out most men.

ginasevern · 09/01/2024 17:48

OP, 50 years ago was actually 1974. You knew the 1970's was the permissive era don't you? I was going to festivals, smoking weed, dropping acid and having sex when I wanted. Most of my friends lost their virginity around the age of 16. You could get the pill just like you can now and radical feminism had already taken hold in the 1960's. I shared a flat with a guy from the ages of 18 to 22 and most of my other friends also lived with their boyfriends who they may or may not have gone on to marry. I think you might be confusing 1974 with 1954.

DaffodilsAlready · 09/01/2024 17:52

SmugglersHaunt · 08/01/2024 18:03

I’d lower your standards (literally) to 5’ 10” and above

😂

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 09/01/2024 18:02

ginasevern · 09/01/2024 17:48

OP, 50 years ago was actually 1974. You knew the 1970's was the permissive era don't you? I was going to festivals, smoking weed, dropping acid and having sex when I wanted. Most of my friends lost their virginity around the age of 16. You could get the pill just like you can now and radical feminism had already taken hold in the 1960's. I shared a flat with a guy from the ages of 18 to 22 and most of my other friends also lived with their boyfriends who they may or may not have gone on to marry. I think you might be confusing 1974 with 1954.

I think in a lot of ways the 70s were a lot more free and easy than the 60s for a lot more people, especially women. The pill was available, abortion was legal, feminism was really taking hold.

I see a lot of OP's attitude on MN. Anything before the poster was born was the dark ages.

JTRSOP · 09/01/2024 18:21

Everyone keeps saying a man wrote this. Why would a man declare that women should stop having sex before marriage 😂

WeCanLeaveTheChristmasLightsUp · 09/01/2024 18:24

JTRSOP · 09/01/2024 18:21

Everyone keeps saying a man wrote this. Why would a man declare that women should stop having sex before marriage 😂

Because he's bitter they won't have sex with him, so he wants them not to have sex with anyone.

Denying women their sexual agency is an incel priority - they HATE that women can, and do choose (but never them...wonder why!)

Pinkbonbon · 09/01/2024 18:30

JTRSOP · 09/01/2024 18:21

Everyone keeps saying a man wrote this. Why would a man declare that women should stop having sex before marriage 😂

To be fair, incels do this. They paint women as sluts if they have any sex. But they also want sex from them. They think they should be the exception.

Wheresthefibre · 09/01/2024 18:32

JTRSOP · 09/01/2024 18:21

Everyone keeps saying a man wrote this. Why would a man declare that women should stop having sex before marriage 😂

Because large groups of men who can’t attract a woman because of their terrible personalities like to blame women who enjoy sex for everything.

They like to convince women the reason there’s no good men is because women give sex to easily. That’s the cause of it. It’s women’s fault.

They also believe that they would attract women if women would just be submissive. They also believe they would attract women if it was ‘like it was in the olds days’, the old days being like a 1950s fever dream.

Yes they also want women to have sex with them. Which is the irony of their point of view. They want women to be experienced enough to be good in bed, but also want virgins.

They want ‘traditional’ Women. But also think any woman who doesn’t want to work and stay home is a gold digger leech or parasite out to take them for everything. They don’t want women to have sex outside marriage but also consider women who want to wait for marriage to be trying to trap a man.

These tend to be men with no gold to dig. Another irony. And believe women give sex to easily to men who are rich or more attractive than they are. And if only women wouldn’t be so ‘slutty’ they would be able to find a woman.

They also really don’t like men who can get sex, are more attractive than they are, richer than they are. And also believe these men go around having sex with women, not because they like it, but just to get at the men who can’t attract a woman.

WeCanLeaveTheChristmasLightsUp · 09/01/2024 18:40

You sum it up so well @Wheresthefibre ! It's depressingly accurate.

everyscarwillbuildmythrone · 09/01/2024 18:42

Have you considered your offensive views and sense of entitlement are the reason you're still single?

5128gap · 09/01/2024 19:11

JTRSOP · 09/01/2024 18:21

Everyone keeps saying a man wrote this. Why would a man declare that women should stop having sex before marriage 😂

Because he's not a man women are having sex with anyway, so what does he have to lose? He is bitter and jealous of the 'alpha' men he thinks are getting the sex he is being denied so tries to shame women to stop. He believes that the only way he can get a share of women is to discredit the alphas and loosen their hold on the resources (women).

User1789 · 09/01/2024 19:35

The weirdness about 6' or over men is a relatively new thing. Yes people prefered 'tall men' in the early 00s when I was last dating, but nobody was putting a number on it, and short men got laid (Source: my hoe phase).

For somebody who considers yourself 'decent' you are actually a deeply objectifying person in your insistance men need to be tall and handsome to fuck women, who's power lies in being fucked. I wouldn't want to marry somebody with that attitude OP, fwiw.