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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Here is what is wrong with men in 2023 and what we can do about it

434 replies

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 17:52

Hi all. Ive come to a realisation lately that has almost brought me close to tears because I have to accept that Im probably going to be single for the rest of my life. Grab a cuppa because this is probably going to be long.

For context, I am a single 33 year old female with my own business, own house, no kids, independent, no baggage, relatively attractive (without blowing my own trumpet) and look young enough than my actual age, have a masters degree, love travelling, open minded, funny (I like to think so), clever, lots of friends, love socialising (out most weekends), and I have some depth to me and actually give a shit about things in life that a lot of people disregard, like animal welfare, homelessness etc. In a nutshell, I’m decent.

Here is the boat I find myself in…
I’ve had 3 proper relationships in my life, all no longer than 12 months, 2 of them verbally abusive and cheaters. Ive got a thick skin now and try not to take any shit and I’m aware of potential red flags that may pop up. Ive been on my own for over 5 years now, with little flings here and there. I’ve tried online dating, but the thing is, I only swipe for the ones conventionally ‘good looking’. By good looking I mean - nice smile and teeth, reasonably attractive, over 6ft (sorry – this is a dealbreaker for me but open minded to many other things), decent job, decent human being. I don’t care if theyre divorced or already have kids, I’m just fundamentally looking for the bare minimum – to fancy them, initially. I’ve had sexless relationships in the past and its not fun for either party – fancying someone is a must.

Whenever I fancy men in real life, I imagine if they were on a dating site and I ask myself if I’d have swiped for them based just on their pictures and the answer is no, I probably wouldn’t, unless of course they are the ‘conventionally good looking’ type that have had the balls to come over to me on a night out (rarely happens these days, and if it does, they turn out to be a narcissist – hence the macho confidence and charisma). So I know dating sites aren’t working for me, as Im much more likely to fancy someone when I can see the ‘fuller picture’ ie their voice, humour, intelligence, wittiness, their mannerisms etc etc. My theory is that most of the men that are conventionally ‘good looking’ and get the most swipes, are probably lacking in all the areas Ive listed above that are attractive traits, and are more than likely players as they have the pick of the bunch (we are ALL swiping for the good looking ones – and they fucking know it!).
You might ask why I haven’t settled down with the men ive met organically then above, the ‘normal’ ones that have traits I like. Here is where my problem really is – they have clocked on that they are a fucking rarity.

Have you been on a night out recently and looked around? There are about 15 attractive women to every ‘good looking’ man. I believe this is because women naturally take more pride in their appearance than men do, and now that we earn our own money, we splash it on treatments and tweakments. It isn’t unusual for a woman to have botox, fillers, hair extensions, nails, the latest clothes, boob job and all the rest – infact, that’s pretty normal for a modern woman in 2023.
Equally, what are men having done? Well, theres the ones who give a shit about their appearance so they might go to the gym 4 times a week (no im not talking about sted heads - yuck), they may splash out in designer gear head to toe (cringe), or the ones with a little bit of class may shop at Reiss instead (better), but you get my jist. They might visit the barber once a week too for a fresh trim. And the rest of them? Nada. No gym, possibly a standard receding haircut or balding (that theyre not bothered about), maybe they haven’t gone shopping for years. But what do both of these types of men both have in common? They both think they are entitled to stunning women.

As ive explained, the ratio of attractive women to attractive men is off the scale. If you haven’t noticed it before, you will now, especially 40 year olds and under. 50 years ago, you were either pretty or you weren’t. You were either an alpha male at 6 ft 2, or you weren’t, and that was ok. You would simply marry up (literally) with someone who was in the same league as you. Now, women are having to lower their bar and accept less than what they deserve, simply because theres so much competition and not enough men to go around. Ask yourself, how many kind, gorgeous, successful, funny, clever, good yet single women do you know? I can bet it’s a lot.

Again, looking back at relationships 50 years ago and more, there was a ‘trade off’. Men needed sex (its in their DNA, they need it), and women needed protecting. Marriage made sense, both sexes were getting a good deal. Pretty much all women were virgins until they were married, and kind of understood the unwritten rule that they needed to ‘keep their man happy’. On the other hand, men kept us happy too. We didn’t need to work and split the finances, we had the luxury of staying at home, cooking, cleaning and raising the kids as regardless of what anyone says, women are more nurturing, emotional, and quite frankly - do a better job of bringing up the children. This worked out fine for men - they went to work, provided for their family (which triggered their hero instinct), and got their dick sucked in return. Masculine and feminine energy intertwined perfectly, sorry feminists, but its true. And the women were happy, until they weren’t.

We then kicked off that we wanted equal rights to men, equal pay, equal jobs, the list goes on, and we got it. We are now a bunch of independent, self sufficient, home owning, driving, single mothers. We’re basically masculine. The men haven’t changed their role though, they aren’t now staying at home, cooking, cleaning and bringing up the kids, they haven’t sacrificed anything but yet they are still reaping the awards. The award – sex.

We somehow have manipulated ourselves into believing that woman need sex like men do (we don’t), and we can sleep around, use men, get our kit off and call it ‘empowering’. It was only empowering when we got the respect we deserved 50 years ago and the mortgage paid. Now, we don’t get called the next day and get pied off for a woman 10 years younger. Men don’t want commitment, period. We nag them, we remind them of their mothers, they have more fun with their friends and we’re a headache to them. The only benefit they have from having a woman in their lives is sex. Period. And we have continued to spoil them with it, with minimal effort from them. We’re lucky if they buy us a plate of food before we do the honour. But we naturally want more, we are wired differently to men, and this is why they USED to meet us in the middle.

But here’s the thing, when we demand more (commitment), the men back off - have you noticed? We get ghosted when we want something in return. Do not let other women fool you into thinking both sexes are getting a good deal by having intercourse, we aren’t. Men inherently need sex, they think about sex thousands of times per day, they even pay for it, and women enjoy it…sometimes, but we don’t inherently need it.
So why on earth are we still having sex freely with men who haven’t earned it, sometimes even with strangers, and blaming being ghosted on countless other reasons? Hes not ready for commitment, hes been hurt before, hes too busy with work, hes avoidantly attached…he’s not. He just doesn’t want to buy the cow when the milk is free.

I personally have took a stance and have stopped having sex with men that haven’t put the bare minimum amount of effort in, to be frank. By bare minimum, I mean he returns my texts, picks me up, takes me out for a few dinners and is nice to me. I’m not asking for a lot. Ive read ‘Why Men Love Bitches’ and ‘The Rules’ – but these books only work with 2 willing participants. It still doesn’t develop into the fairytale romance I had once envisioned on the first date with him, he either doesn’t feel a connection or he’s backed away at the thought of committing.

Some of you will say “not all men are like that”. This is true. Here is my other theory – the ‘other’ men who may be short, insecure, abusive, jobless, homeless, ugly or stupid may be more than willing to settle down with me – you can bet their bottom dollar they are – but I would like someone who brings something to the table, like I do. I won’t fancy a man who is wet behind the ears, who is scared of a hard days work and would be happy to sit at home raising our kids – it’s not masculine and I don’t want it. The ‘other’ men who are none of the things I’ve listed above and are genuinely fantastic men with a lot to offer, raised right and want to commit to a good woman – guess what? THEY ARE ALREADY TAKEN. They were taken in their twenties, and they stayed with that woman, because they are kind, loving, loyal men.

The dating pool for 30, 40, 50 something women now is DIER and we are left with the commitment phobes, abusers, narcissists or tons of baggage that we don’t want. The feminist movement along with plastic surgery and ‘empowering’ women has damaged us. We now all offer the same thing to men and they are spoiled for choice. I was chatting with a male friend of mine not long ago who had been seeing a woman who ticked a lot of boxes but she wanted exclusivity before she agreed to have sex. He didn’t want to be exclusive or commit in any way to any woman, so he let her go. I asked him if he was confident if he would find a good woman like her again in the future, he said yes, and I believe him. We are all competing with each other to be the thinnest, prettiest, most enhanced, smartest, richest to bag the best man, and he’s sitting back and laughing at us all climb over each other in desperation. He’s chilled as a cucumber.

My biological clock is ticking, his isn’t. The men aren’t worried, we are. The men aren’t on mumsnet starting threads about women who won’t have sex with them, because we do. But trust me, if we took this big asset away, they would. Have you noticed how many eligible bachelors you know who just decide when theyre about 45-50 that they are ‘finally ready to settle down’? And they find someone pretty much right away, usually 15 years younger, a box ticker, no kids, no baggage and very fucking fertile. He becomes a dad and gets married and everyone goes “ah at last! He finally found -the One!”. No – she isn’t the one who changed him, she was the one who was there when he realised his looks were fading and he better take what he can while he can. Meanwhile, the women he messed around with back in the day are well into their fifties, still single, possibly childless and debating whether to date someone 20 years older who may cherish them the way no man their age ever did. Do I want to date someone 20 years older than me to feel special? No thanks.

I believe if we all took a stance and stopped giving men the one thing they NEED (sex), until they give us what we NEED (love and commitment), things will change. Stop sexting and sending nudes – they used to pay Babestation for that, now we’re doing it for free! Stop allowing them to waltz in and out of your life every other weekend when he feels like it. Stop popping kids out to undeserving men who wont even put a ring on your finger. A child is the greatest gift a woman can give to a man, its priceless and its basically fucking magical. Yet, people are allowing their wombs to be invaded by men who couldn’t give 2 shits about them when it comes down to it. We then raise fatherless children who grow up with daddy issues and the cycle repeats again. We need to raise the bar and say NO collectively, or else it won’t work. The bimbo on Saturday night who goes home with him after one drink (bare minimum) will undo all our hard work.
If the feminist movement hadn’t have happened, I don’t believe relationships would be as dire as they are right now. Its great that we earn the same as men and have our independence, but look at the price we have paid. They haven’t paid any price, nothing has changed for them, infact it only got EASIER. They still get sex and kids, but no bills or commitment – bingo! We have normalised this behaviour and it’s time to put an end to it.

I can turn down a man for sex tomorrow, but he’s not bothered because he always knows this… theres another desperate girl hoping that if she fucks like a pornstar Friday night she will bag him. She won’t. And he will move on to the next. Women look for love, men only fall in love by accident – by spending quality time with a woman. But they can’t fall in love if we give it up too easy when his foot is already out the door.

As you can tell I've given this a lot of thought and I'm disappointed with where I find myself at my age, and where I think the world is heading. Does anyone else feel the same way?

OP posts:
whatwouldAnnaDelveydo · 08/01/2024 23:48

"Women need protection..." 😴
Are you saying we need a man to protect us from... other men?
No, thank you. We need men to behave properly.
I don't know what is the bottom line but no, men don't always go for younger women, and some conventionally attractive men are nice.

IvorTheEngineDriver · 09/01/2024 00:00

I want more...true love and commitment, but men don't want to provide that anymore.

Men do want true love and commitment. However, those that do tend to spend their 20s looking for them and most will have have found it by the time they turn 30. I certainly did. Once you pass 30 then while some will still be looking for love and commitment, I am afraid most (IMO) will fall into one of three categories:

  1. no interest in commitment.
  2. such an arsehole no woman will have him, or
  3. both of the above.
Frostytwiglet · 09/01/2024 00:07

@Hugsandkisses1 It must be you OP, its really not that hard to get a good, attractive man if you are a reasonably attractive woman and a nice person. If your struggling then your not as appealing as you think you are.

Spain1986 · 09/01/2024 00:27

You have made a lot of valid points. As you say, too many men just don’t make an effort with their appearance which doesn’t help.

I have come to the realisation that I am going to have to seek a man I have no attraction or interest in. It’s just not happening. I haven’t been excited about a man for ages, and it’s not happening ever again.

I will have to try and fake it with the next man who appears. I will practise my acting skills this year. Fairy tales are just that. I stopped believing in those a while back. Take the man who sticks around, as that is as good as it gets. It’s only company after all.

EmmaEmerald · 09/01/2024 00:31

@Spain1986 you’re going to get with the next interested man, that you might not like, and fake everything for company?

Spain1986 · 09/01/2024 00:33

I’m tired of trying to date. It’s really boring. I’ll have to try those strategies next time.

Pinkbonbon · 09/01/2024 00:34

Spain1986 · 09/01/2024 00:27

You have made a lot of valid points. As you say, too many men just don’t make an effort with their appearance which doesn’t help.

I have come to the realisation that I am going to have to seek a man I have no attraction or interest in. It’s just not happening. I haven’t been excited about a man for ages, and it’s not happening ever again.

I will have to try and fake it with the next man who appears. I will practise my acting skills this year. Fairy tales are just that. I stopped believing in those a while back. Take the man who sticks around, as that is as good as it gets. It’s only company after all.

Edited

Oh gosh no, don't do that.

If you don't fancy someone, they are just a friend.

Also, you are depriving them of finding someone who is attracted to them, which would be realy selfish.

You are so potentially doing women a great disservice by 'settling' for someone when you could do better. It makes men think women are happy to settle for 'less than'.

Stay single and get some good friends and a pet.
There is never an excuse to settle.
Even if you want kids, infact, even moreso as it continue the cycle of women settling and men thinking they should.

SwordToFlamethrower · 09/01/2024 00:43

I'll start by saying you're shallow. Next I'll say you're full of shit.
Finally, I'll say no wonder you're single!

Jeeeeeeeez

EmmaEmerald · 09/01/2024 00:44

Spain1986 · 09/01/2024 00:33

I’m tired of trying to date. It’s really boring. I’ll have to try those strategies next time.

I’m sure it is boring, stressful etc

but you would have a man for company that you weren’t interested in? Why not just stay single?

have i misunderstood and you’re talking about not finding them physically attractive but you would at least like them?

confused. Past my bedtime 😂

Jingleballs2 · 09/01/2024 01:02

I think you are the reason you're single.. sorry 🤯

Riseandshinee · 09/01/2024 01:08

Basically all the nice ones are taken

WandaWonder · 09/01/2024 01:44

Men are not some collective group, and I was going to say women aren't but I have been on here long enough not to be sure

So all women are 'innocent little lambs' and all men are 'the big bad wolf'?

Thatladdo · 09/01/2024 02:38

You hold yourself in high esteem.

The fact you've had 3 "proper" (!) relationships that have lasted less than 12 months speaks volumes.

Ascubudr · 09/01/2024 04:03

but most women want commitment and atleast exclusivity.

Where did you get this from ? Maybe during the years of child bearing/raising, but before or after that ? Nah

SpicyMoth · 09/01/2024 04:05

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 21:04

I feel that most of you are just solely concentrating on the anti-feminist points. Let me clarify - I’m glad I don’t rely on a man to provide for me. The point I was making is that if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex. They had to show commitment to have sex, and deny it all you like, but most women want commitment and atleast exclusivity. I’m saying that men don’t need to provide that now, as sex is on tap and easily accessible.

if you think an incel wrote this then I’d suggest getting your head felt - it goes against everything incels stand for.

by the way - aware of my typo of ‘dire’ but you will see I spelt it correctly further down my novel later on…but thank you for pointing it out :-)

im standing up for women and saying we deserve more. Im sick of reading and hearing about women being treated like an option when we make men a priority. Is there a Dadsnet where men are complaining about being ghosted after sex? I don’t think so. It’s not in our nature really to have sex with someone we’re not really into, to then just ghost them. But men like to spread their seed - you know it, we all know it.

finally can people stop solely concentrating on my comment about 6 ft aswel please. It’s my preference, but I have dated people shorter. I will take that onboard if I ever do online dating again and maybe lower it as there is a possibility that taller men are kind of exploiting that, knowing they’re more sought after. I wouldn’t absolutely object to dating someone who ticked lots of boxes just because he’s 5 ft 10 - wise up!

"if you think an incel wrote this then I’d suggest getting your head felt - it goes against everything incels stand for."

OP if you genuinely think this, I'd also suggest "getting your head felt"...

Yes, incel means 'involuntarily celibate', but no it does not refer only to sex.

Some incels only want sex and obsess over it, sure.
But a lot are just incredibly lonely, socially awkward men who want long term relationships and companionship and feel entitled to it.
They feel so entitled because to their mind, they think they're a "nice guy".
They can't see that their own behaviour is actually the problem and put all the blame on the opposite sex, growing more and more resentful & bitter over time.
Typically they will only accept the "hottest" women and will complain that they have already lowered their standards many times over and it just isn't enough, "all" women are terrible, stuck up, only want a "chad" who's a min' of 6ft.

Can you really not see that mentality reflected within your own posts but with the roles reversed..?

ShippingNews · 09/01/2024 04:39

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 08/01/2024 18:14

Why do you think most women were virgins before marriage 50 years ago?

50 years ago was 1973. I can assure OP that a lot of women weren't virgins at marriage, esp the ones going to university. This was the era of Cosmopolitan (the radical, feminist version) and the Pill, when women in large numbers started realising that sex wasn't just for marriage.

If you want to talk about "women being virgins before marriage", it's more like 70 years ago, around the 1950's. There was no contraceptive pill, and society was very judgemental about single motherhood. Staying a virgin was more to do with society's expectations than anything else.

ShippingNews · 09/01/2024 04:42

You seem to be doing yourself no favours by being so picky about looks.

My DH is the kindest, loveliest man on the face of the earth, but if I'd let his looks get in the way I'd never have given him a second glance. If you want a relationship , looks can't be the main driver in picking a man or you'll be forever single.

Talith · 09/01/2024 05:23

My ex-husband is 6 foot 1, tall dark handsome sporty fit well dressed high earner. Note the ex.

My current partner of 8 years is 10 years older than me, grey hair, stocky, manual worker, we are long distance... Sex is incredible he's hilarious and caring and I couldn't love him more. Funnily enough we had sex within 40 mins of meeting each other and he seems to have stuck around so I don't believe playing hard to get is the only route to monogamy!

You're definitely too set on a physical ideal. It's not even "dropping standards" it's seeing that you're just looking for the wrong things.

A friend of mine had a definite physical type and waited for years. Lo and behold she eventually found the exact bloke right down to the haircut and guess what he's a twat.

Wheresthefibre · 09/01/2024 05:51

Hugsandkisses1 · 08/01/2024 21:04

I feel that most of you are just solely concentrating on the anti-feminist points. Let me clarify - I’m glad I don’t rely on a man to provide for me. The point I was making is that if men didn’t have a wife/girlfriend, they rarely had sex. They had to show commitment to have sex, and deny it all you like, but most women want commitment and atleast exclusivity. I’m saying that men don’t need to provide that now, as sex is on tap and easily accessible.

if you think an incel wrote this then I’d suggest getting your head felt - it goes against everything incels stand for.

by the way - aware of my typo of ‘dire’ but you will see I spelt it correctly further down my novel later on…but thank you for pointing it out :-)

im standing up for women and saying we deserve more. Im sick of reading and hearing about women being treated like an option when we make men a priority. Is there a Dadsnet where men are complaining about being ghosted after sex? I don’t think so. It’s not in our nature really to have sex with someone we’re not really into, to then just ghost them. But men like to spread their seed - you know it, we all know it.

finally can people stop solely concentrating on my comment about 6 ft aswel please. It’s my preference, but I have dated people shorter. I will take that onboard if I ever do online dating again and maybe lower it as there is a possibility that taller men are kind of exploiting that, knowing they’re more sought after. I wouldn’t absolutely object to dating someone who ticked lots of boxes just because he’s 5 ft 10 - wise up!

No it’s everything incels stand for. That the good old days were better. That modern society has made men treat women bad if they do treat them badly and it’s all trenchant of stupid women who have too much sex. That women were happier when they had to do all the housework, Forgetting that the women actually worked as well in a lot of households, and were property and could be raped by their husbands and could have bank accounts.

Men have never needed marriage for sex. Ever.

People are concentrating on the 6ft because you are banging on about how women look, assuming they all have work done and Moaning that men are attracted to to them. Yet you only wanting a man over 6ft is perfectly fine. In which case it perfectly fine for these not to want you because you don’t fit their preferences

and I work with loads of women and know loads of women. They all don’t have boob jobs, fillers and Botox. In fact I am the only one who has had cosmetic surgery and it was to make my boobs smaller because they made life painful.

I am in my 40s. I was married from about 20. Then when I got divorced about 18 months later I met a man of a similar age. He was lovely. But he wanted marriage. I didn’t. So we have recently split. I have been asked out by 3 men I have known a good long while and said no because I know both of them are looking for long term and to get married. I am not particularly attractive. Apart from a breast reduction I haven’t had work done. But your experience of not being able to find a man you are attracted to that wants you back, isn’t women’s faults. And there are plenty of men wanting a long term relationships. The fact that you are attracted to ones that don’t is all about you.

If you aren’t an incel, you are the ‘I am just built different to other women’ like that Pearl woman from you tube. That also hates women, thinks modern women are to blame for all that makes her unhappy. Thinks all men want a submissive woman that stays at home and never questions them. Talks about how her views are what men really wants, but never has an actual long term relationship. Men who agree with her often want this but don’t want to also support the family. They want finances to be 50:50 like the passport brow going abroad to meet ‘traditional women’. They want to take women back to America who will cook and clean and look after the kids. But are horrified when these women would also expect not to work and be fully financed. These men don’t want that either. They want a oan to do all the housework, everything to with the kids and work and do 50:50 on finances.

But even then, this is nowhere most men.

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 09/01/2024 06:14

OP you haven't helped your case with any of your updates. You are convinced that other women are the reason men you want don't want you.

They aren't. You are the reason. It could be that you are coming off with a superiority complex. It could be that you're coming off desperate. It could be that you're only going after awful time and ignoring good ones because of superficial factors. But it's not the behaviour of women that's the reason. It's you.

My DH, although not 6ft, if he really really wanted could have his pick of women. I'm often surprised he fancies me, although thats a me thing. But he does. He walked away from a few women who weren't right for him before he met me because he didn't want to settle down just because that's what you do. When we met, there was a lot of things that could have let him just ghost me. But he didn't want to.

When men want to be with you, they will be. Doesn't matter what the women around them are doing or look like. If they want to be with you they will be.

Ascubudr · 09/01/2024 06:50

IpsyUpsyDaisyDoos · 09/01/2024 06:14

OP you haven't helped your case with any of your updates. You are convinced that other women are the reason men you want don't want you.

They aren't. You are the reason. It could be that you are coming off with a superiority complex. It could be that you're coming off desperate. It could be that you're only going after awful time and ignoring good ones because of superficial factors. But it's not the behaviour of women that's the reason. It's you.

My DH, although not 6ft, if he really really wanted could have his pick of women. I'm often surprised he fancies me, although thats a me thing. But he does. He walked away from a few women who weren't right for him before he met me because he didn't want to settle down just because that's what you do. When we met, there was a lot of things that could have let him just ghost me. But he didn't want to.

When men want to be with you, they will be. Doesn't matter what the women around them are doing or look like. If they want to be with you they will be.

This, if a man is keen they let you know.

swedishmom24 · 09/01/2024 07:05

Wow far too long to read the whole thing.

It sounds like you're very very focused on appearances, quite possibly to an unhealthy degree. Why is 6ft a deal breaker for you? Perhaps your ideal man is a well groomed, high earning 5 ft 10 chap?

DH isn't appearance wise how I would describe my "type" (nor me his) but we both find each other attractive and have a happy marriage. How we treat each other and get in day to day is vastly more important than whether we've put on a few pounds, have a balding spot or heaven forbid allowed a wrinkle to develop.

DeathNote11 · 09/01/2024 07:24

I stopped reading when staying home to raise kids was described as a luxury that women are naturally better at.

You have an awful lot to learn. An awful lot. Start by reading up on 'internalised misogyny'.

Mambo1986 · 09/01/2024 07:25

I don’t understand how noone can see alot of this is true at the moment there are elements of what she said that were extreme but generally how can you not see where she is coming from. Think about it if there are more attractive women than men then this shit will happen it’s basic math. Though the sex mad behaviour really is only reserved for the top top men so tbh most men and women are in the same boat. It’s sad because I’ll be real here a lot of people just aren’t movie star attractive and I think social media has given us too much expectation. I’m not really sure what the solution is you really have to learn to accept that it’s not all about physical attraction but if you spend so long on dating apps it’s the only criteria you select by hence when the same men are getting thousands of matches and they don’t match you it makes you miserable. Just wanted to say OP I get it

tralalalalalalalal · 09/01/2024 07:35

You are too judgmental to be happy. That's the problem, you're tightly wound and have a deep need to control the looks and intentions of those around you. You're too concerned with how you look to everyone else too.