Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

By the time your DH slapped DD, she had repeatedly assaulted him, with her violence increasing from poking up to kicking him in the balls and had also hit you when you tried to intervene. And yet she has the gall to be horrified he slapped her? Frankly it sounds long overdue.

I'd take a long think about even letting her back in the house, let alone funding her holiday.

Has H ever had therapy to address his anger and abusive behaviour ? Has he ever acknowledged and apologised?

Whether you like it or not his actions has had a physical and profound emotional impact on your daughter that’s on going.

I disagree that your H is threatening to withdraw university financial support if she goes on holiday. She has been working two jobs to go. She is 18 and an adult. He is justified in what he buys her for Xmas . But controlling her that’s abuse. Actions have consequences and she behaved badly.

OP you have a voice but seem reluctant to rock the boat and support your daughter. You risk losing her . Has this been a pattern for her growing up a mum who is submissive and never sticks up for her.

I don’t know the answer . She should not have hit you or her dad. But his controlling behaviour needs addressing before you lose her for good.

I would definitely make sure she had a Christmas present even if it’s not the one she expected

Sounds to me like there is something genetic going on, DD has inherited it from her dad, and he in turn inherited it from his father. I think you definitely need to find out what, if only for the sake of dd's boyfriend, and any potential children DD may have.

I also think Mexico is not a good idea, in case she has one of these meltdowns there. I can't imagine boyfriend's parents being very sympathetic.

But as a pp suggested, it shouldn't be a punishment - it's just not safe for her to go, and the money should be used to get some help.

Having read some of your posts please get her checked for PMDD.
I had horrific PMDD.. I once actually pulled a fridge door off and emptied the entire contents all over the floor. Just shouting and smashing. Tried to attack my ex husband with a knife .. a hammer a pan.. raged and ranted until l passed out.. ( l also have ADHD).. She needs to see a psychotherapist ( preferably a psychiatrist.) Mine didn't stop until l had hysterectomy age 38.

Wise up - it's help this young woman desperately needs.

I'm not convinced that refusing to pay for her holiday is a constructive way forward, however, I would share the concern of others about her potential loss of control while she's away.

Kids aren't stupid ,they remember,they are like sponges soaking up their environment.
What punishment did your husband get for his rages ???? He seems very sure that is how to stop DD raging ...did punishment stop him raging ...
She's watched him rant and rage for years with no consequences,she's been taken from the house with her siblings to allow him to rage ....yet when she copies his behaviour you punish her
You should of punished your DH ,and divorced him years ago ..you haven't protected her from him .
They should never of been allowed to clash as you say ,it's an unequal relationship and he holds all the power ,so letting them keep clashing as she grew up ,you were not protecting her from him ..
I would say your DH dad has something he has passed to your DH ,who has passed it to your dd....at a guess,I'd say autism,..which left untreated and needs not met can cause BPD..
Your dd needs a doctor's appointment and assessment for autism and also appointment with adult mental health team ...
Your husband abused your children with his rages ...you reap what you sow.
Don't let your husband make this any worse ,your dd needs you ...he is a grown ass man who can get himself to the doctor if he chooses.
Your daughter is the vulnerable one here .

She needs tough love and psychiatric help. Take the money you would have spent on the trip and get her a private psychiatrist with it. Her behavior is highly abnormal and needs to be diagnosed and monitored, for her safety and the safety of others around her.

@Thisoldchestnut what tosh.
And that’s really insulting to those of us who are autistic.

I think you need to stand up for your daughter. Her behaviour is awful but it sounds as if she really doesn’t have control over it and is unable to emotionally regulate.

For what it is worth, I also had an angry and violent father. It took me into my early 20s to learn that throwing things and breaking them wasn’t a solution to my anger and it didn’t help. I still have difficulty with with anger but am never violent. I have a good relationship with my father now but it did take years of therapy. My mother would protect me from a lot of my father’s anger and I’m grateful for that.

It’s very difficult when you grow up with heightened emotions round you all the time. You think that is how to communicate when things aren’t going well and sometimes it feels that is the only way to get understood or heard. Clearly your daughter was already upset after the row with her bf and it seems as if she took it out on her father. Not ok but I echo everyone’s suggestion about therapy if you can afford it. NHS if you can’t. It’s not perfect but it is a start.

That it's mainly in her interpersonal relationships sounds more like Borderline traits than being ND. But ideally she needs a proper assessment for everything with a consultant that is evidence based.

I saw a private consultant who was a narcissistic maverick so I actually wouldn't recommend that.

She needs to go back to her GP and describe in detail what's going on and the effects it's having on her life. She needs them to refer her to a consultant for assessment of what is actually going on.

Of course if she won't go to her doctor again or won't tell them the truth @MarmiteMakesMeHappy then there's not much you can do on that front necessarily.

But she definitely needs some sort of therapy IMHO. There are loads of different things she can try. If she didn't get much out of DBT I highly recommend EMDR.

It could help even if she is ND because people who are ND go through life having painful experiences at times, which have a knock on effect on their emotions and so on. So it's not uncommon for someone who is ND (which I personally don't necessarily think she is, anyway) to have personality disorder traits. This is what a consultant said to me.

This. I would be standing by my husband in these circumstances. She is an adult and totally out of control. ND or not, it's totally unacceptable. I have two sons on the spectrum and this would not be acceptable behaviour under any circumstances. She needs to catch a grip.

I agree. My niece has severe autism and would never behave this way.

Sorry but no way in hell would that behavior be getting a trip paid for partly by me.
Unless a very full and frank apology with also steps to get help I wouldn't even be considering it.

She sounds like she needs help and your DH has to take some responsibility for this but she doesn't deserve it right now without growing up a hell of a lot

This is a bit of a simplistic take. This isn't domestic abuse in terms of intimate partner violence. It's child to parent abuse which absolutely can be addressed within family therapy. The parents could access some intervention around non violent resistance. I have just been reflecting and I asked before why she hadn't been referred for assessments in the past - I would be putting the flight money and any other money needed towards private assessments; autism and ADHD to start with, and a psychiatrist appointment to discuss the mental health presentations. This young woman needs to know what's she's dealing with and how to help herself. Private DBT sessions would almost certainly be helpful even without a diagnosis of EUPD. I feel that she's been let down by not having had any assessments as a child TBH.

I feel sick reading some of these hysterical replies, calling your DD a "bitch", diagnosing her with serious personality disorders. You really taking this all on board?

This fight is the culmination and consequence of growing up with an angry father whose wife facilitated his behaviour (and yes of course it will affect different children differently - the ignorance on here is breathtaking).

You need to sit down with your DD and say you love her very much and want to help her as you know she must be worried and unhappy. Then sit down with your husband and say this stops here. He was the adult, he chose to be angry then, and know she's grown up he somehow thinks the cure for what he inflicted on her is more punishment. Why cant you see this? Get off this thread and get some proper help.

First stop - YoungMinds parents helpline: https://www.youngminds.org.uk/parent/

Relate do family therapy: www.relate.org.uk

And finally local MIND or IAPT often run anger management for men like your husband - him admitting his behaviour was wrong to both himself and your DD would be a big first step: https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/anger/treatment-and-support/

Admittedly, I’ve not read every response so apologies if I repeat anything.
I work with children who are victims of childhood trauma and adverse experiences and it’s changed the way I see behaviour…she’s 18 yes, but a child who has experienced aggression/violence/trauma has a different brain chemistry and make up to those who don’t. Mostly, they are unable to emotionally regulate, catastrophise, have disproportionate reactions to seemingly minor inconveniences, and see the world in a way others do not. I’m not saying her behaviour is okay, it’s not, but I once heard the analogy that going through life carrying trauma is like looking at the world through smashed glasses, everyone else sees clearly and you don’t…you just don’t know that you don’t see things how others do. I would also add that a persons brain isn’t fully developed until their 25, so you add that into the mix and it gives context to her seemingly infantile toddler like responses to situations.
Additionally, a punishment that is four months away is not going to work how your DH thinks it is. Although 18, in her situation, she needs immediate and measurable consequences. A consequence that comes in a few months time runs the risk of becoming a comment on how you feel about her inner self, and not a response to her behaviour.
Not paying and changing her Xmas present = immediate. Stopping her from going altogether to something four months in the future = not immediate.

Please seek out family therapy through Relate; the whole family needs to heal the wounds caused by your husband in your DD formative years.

Sorry, but I can’t see the BF putting up with this behaviour for much longer.
maybe you could get her assessed. ADHD or on the spectrum springs to mind.

I think it’s great you are trying to see both sides OP. This sounds like a terrible situation to be in and I can’t imagine the stress it’s causing you personally.

I think you and DH need to put on a united front and decide on an appropriate course of action. If she sees one of you as the softer, easily manipulated parent, she can use this as leverage. There are still 3 days to go until Christmas. I really hope they can talk things out before then.

However, I would stress that your DD needs serious psychological support because outbursts of anger like that is not normal. I have PCOS. It’s really hard and emotionally draining but I don’t have severe anger management issues. That is a wider issue. You said your DH has calmed down over the years, which is great and he’s shown growth. Your DD needs to do the same if they are to maintain a relationship.

@ParentPerson has explained it much better than I; I hope the OP will listen to this poster at least.

Her behavior is clearly not within the normal range for an 18 year old. Even if she struggles to regulate her conduct she has learned a valuable lesson that when you hit people as an adult you can reasonably expect them to hit back. Best she learns this now before she hurls a glass at someone in a pub and gets a criminal conviction, because this is exactly where she is heading.

She needs to take your comments onboard and to stop assaulting and abusing you. Because that is actually what she is doing. It sounds like you are downplaying it because it is quite difficult to face. I’d send her back to her uni town until next holidays. No coming home until then because, frankly, you all need a break from her unpleasantness. No money for Mexico and she needs to make her own appointment to see her GP and take some ownership for fixing this. She can go to Mexico or not - whatever - on her own steam.

Honestly, likely autism. Presents differently in girls.

My sister is autistic - she can hold down a job. She attends uni. But can be absolutely awful in a melt down. Screaming that she will kill herself and be our faults, name calling, you name it. She will throw things, self harm, hit, kick, scream. Only thing that helped was medication - sertraline. She has no control otherwise.

I hope (for his sake) that the bf breaks up with her before Easter so this will all be a nil point.

By the sounds of it she already verbally abused him and with the escalation of her behaviour in your family it wouldn't surprise me if she escalated her behaviour with him too. And to him it doesn't matter how shitting her childhood was or what the route cause is, he needs to keep himself safe.

I also feel immensely for your other (younger?) DC who are having to live with and witness this. At this point in time she is the one causing DV in your home and you need to keep them safe. Again, whatever this stems from in the past and whether that's DH fault, it's her whos emotionally abusing the rest of the family now by forcing them to witness and intervene in this, they need to be kept safe.

I'm no professional so I'm not going to throw out answers or diagnosis. But look after yourself, look after your other children. Even look out for her bf - if she abuses him you can't stand by her on it.

And for the love of god don't let her go to Mexico. Not as a punishment but because, as many posters have pointed out, it's not safe. What if she loses it with him/his family whilst there? Mexican prison is not where she wants to be. And It's likely you may lose the flight money anyway as, if there relationships is already so volatile, there's a chance they'll be split up before Easter.

I think your dd is now an adult, so does need to be treated like one and not excused for her inability to control herself. You can hardly blame her adult father for his inability to control himself if you don’t expect her to take any responsibility for her own aggressive outbursts.

No way should she be given money to go to Mexico and I agree the money should instead be offered for psychiatric assessment. I think refusing to help fund her university costs to ensure she cannot go to Mexico is too controlling and conflating different things, however. It’s not as if you don’t want her completing her degree, after all, is it, so don’t send her that message.

It's really worrying that so many posters advocate putting on a united front with a man who has subjected his family to years of abuse.

Your DD sounds very emotionally immature, not mentally unwell. And that will come with age and time, she's only just entering adulthood.

I would lay out some very clear boundaries that she cannot behave like this at home, and also with your DH that he needs to stay well out of her personal space if she's having a meltdown. And lay out consequences for both if they don't follow through with them.

I wouldn't pay for her flight after that behaviour and like other PP's have said, I would have very serious concerns about her ability to regulate her behaviour that far away from home. Take it all off the table for now and discuss when the dust has settled.