Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

If she were a ds instead of a dd, these outbursts would have been tackled years ago. It is wrong to let them continue just because she is female, so less physically strong.

Her behaviour is vile but I don’t believe in punishing with Christmas or birthdays or big events like holidays.

The truth is is that her behaviour is learnt behaviour.

She may push it further than your DH does but that’s because when she was a child/teen she witnessed his behaviour and it taught her how to act.

Now all of a sudden she’s being told that the behaviour she witnessed and was taught is wrong and she’s getting into trouble because of something she has been taught is right.
Which is going to make her struggle to regulate her emotions even more.

This is why child who come from homes with DV are extremely likely to become victims or perpetrators of DV, because this is what they’ve been taught.

She is a very damaged young women and it is not fair that DH wants to punish her for acting exactly how he taught her to act.

He needs to take responsibility here and be the one to say that he caused this and he’s going to be the one to try and fix it.

If you want to punish her, then you should but you shouldn’t do that with birthdays or Christmas’s or things like this holiday.

It would benefit both DD and DH if they had some therapy separately and together.

I think your focus is on the wrong thing, to be honest.

Your focus seems to be on whether or not she should have her funding cut-meaning she can't afford to go to Mexico-this is the wrong thing to focus on, IMO.

Your DH is right and fair to say that he's no longer going to fund the holiday or pay any additional fees/expenses. She's 18 and she needs to learn (if she hasn't by now) that actions have consequences. He, however, can't prevent her from going to Mexico if she wants to and can self-fund it.

The biggest issue is here that she's physically violent. You make the excuse for her (and I wonder if your repeated excusing of her behaviour contributes to it) and say she can't control it. This excuse wouldn't fly if it were a man saying it, would it?

She can control her temper as she doesn't act like that at work or at universities. Is she physically abusive to her boyfriend/friends, too? If not, that suggests a degree of self-control that she chooses to not exert at home. Probably because she knows you won't kick her out or give her any consequences for her behaviour.

The fact that she's more focused/bothered about the fact that your DH slapped her in response to her abuse of him is absolutely very telling of her. She lacks awareness or care for her own actions-but is flabbergasted when someone would dare respond.

The focus has to be on getting her therapy because if she flips like this with the wrong person that won't stop at a slap-she'll learn a very hard lesson or she'll end up arrested.

She needs to learn that she can't get away with treating people like this. No doubt she's had issues inherited from your DH and his behaviour and this needs to be addressed in therapy.

I don't think you need to be torn between your DD and your DH. You need to think about what is actually going to benefit your DD long-term. Is it going to be better long-term for her to get her way now and face no meaningful consequences for her actions?

I personally don't think so and I agree with PPs that she'd benefit a lot more from the money being redirected towards therapy than to the flights. If she wants to go on holiday, she can fund it herself-but your DH is well within his rights to say he's not paying for it.

As punishment, I'd say she's getting off lightly.

This sounds like domination to me.

So much of how we view the world and react to things is learned in our early years.

Your husbands early rages must have been severe if you felt the need to remove yourself and the children from the home at times.

Me and my brother grew up in a home with an angry parent.

Mine presented in my teen years as anxiety and low self esteem. I hid it well though so from the outside people probably would of thought I was calm and okay.

My brother however was very angry. He couldn't regulate his emotions well at all.

I am not excusing your daughters behaviour. Physically assaulting anyone is not acceptable.

Your husband however needs to take it on the chin that your daughters anger at least partly has stemmed from him. As I said, this doesn't mean its okay for your daughter to physically attack him.

I think removing Mexico as an option is the least of your problems.

Your daughter needs some help, not punishment.

F

I agree with this.

You said your DH has calmed down over the years

This is another thing I was told by a consulant. People with borderline (or borderline traits I suppose) often improve with age somewhat. https://www.grouporttherapy.com/blog/does-bpd-get-better-with-age

Late teens/20s is the worst for it.

My dad was volatile and he mellowed. (Then he got worse again because my step mum brings out the worst in him, but that's by the by.)

Of course any life stressors can bring out personality disorder traits so the DH could get worse again when he faces stresses such as at work, illness, or bereavement etc.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy Trying to get them both to get help for/improve their behaviours is probably the best way of going about it. Yes DH has improved but he could do things to make that improvement even stronger and ensure it continues, by improving his emotional resilience.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-to-know-about-autism-and-rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-7097539

Given her behaviour to everyone, she absolutely does need a psychiatric assessment. That's not to say she has a serious personality disorder, or is neurodivergent, but it recognised that her behaviour is consistent with some of these.

While it's a possibility its essential its ruled in or ruled out, for her own sake. It will be awful for her losing control without understanding why. People who suffer with neurodivergency or personality disorders are often relieved on diagnosis and none of these things are to be ashamed of.

Trauma is certainly at play also, to what extent, is for a professional to work out.

I think at the moment she is 'functioning' as in she's at Uni and works. She has a long term relationship with her boyfriend.

So I would not pay for the trip, she can fund it herself. I would continue to pay towards uni because otherwise you will have much bigger problems in years to come.

I would be tempted to ask her to spend Christmas elsewhere as she needs to be very clear that it is unacceptable to hit anyone, no matter how infuriating you find them.

Please consider the younger siblings, they don't deserve to be around this 'energy'.

Your husband has responsibility for a lot of this behaviour and he needs to realise that he's dealing with the 'consequences' of his actions and will do for quite some time.

If you have the money, let her know that professional help is always available for her.

This is absurd. You DH should have given her a slap the second she raised a hand to him. If shes a grown woman that thinks she can dish out violence - then she can take said violence too. She is disrespectful and volatile. Your DH sounds like he really tried - from ignoring her screaming during his work call to him having the door shoved in his face.

She proceeded to physically assult him with slaps, scratches and pokes as well as kneeing him in the balls and slapping you.

How anyone can say he was wrong to hit back is beyond me. Do parents not have the right to not be assualted anymore?

The brat needs to be kicked out and can stand on her own two feet.

OP- I am sorry this happened. It is awful. But your daughter is GROWN. Actions have consequnes. Had the shoe been on the other foot and you had an 18-year old son that was assualting YOU the same way your daughter assaulted her Dad I dont think this conversation would even be happening

Well the impact of the consequence most likely will damage her relationship and trust in her Dad more.

The trip to Mexico is all a red herring

I think she needs to explore how to manage her temper there could be lots of reasons for it but she needs to get to the bottom of it as it is seriously damaging her relationships.

I wouldn’t withdraw the gift though.

There isn’t anything about that that seems likely to help anything.

Good grief, all the people saying they have someone in their family with autism but they never behave like that - the one thing you should know about autism is that no two autistic people are alike!

Rage, meltdown, goading behaviour - these can all be traits in autistic people. I also second the PPs who suggest it’s worth looking into PMDD

So to be balanced here your DH had mental health issues when your DD was younger that clearly weren't dealt with very well but he got his arse into gear and sorted them out. Its interesting that you talk if his rages not his mental health problems and yet your DD who assaulted you and your husband you're all soft and fuzzy about.
From what you've written both of them have mental health issues but there behaviour was/is not acceptable. This needs dealing with and you need the holiday to Mexico.
As I say to my husband you may have mental health issues but you don't have to be an arse.

Have you considered Borderline Personality Disorder? the flipping uncontrollably when feeling wronged or rejected would fit in with that.

If she has no control and also lashes out at the bf, then I would be very reluctant to let her get on a plane to Mexico.

What happens if she loses it out there and ends up in a state/arrested etc.

I wouldn't want to enable my child to be overseas if they're not capable of being in control of their emotions.

Some posters are saying it’s autism, which it could be but it’s just as likely to be trauma related ND/neurological disorder.

When children have traumas their brain re-wires and they then can develop neurological issues or become ND.

They also learn that this behaviour is an acceptable response.

If DH would be volatile and aggressive whilst she was growing up and DD witnessed this, she will have a high flight or fight response and act the way she was taught.

If she saw DH treat OP a certain way, she will think it’s ok to treat other people that way too.

An extreme example is when children are raised by animals.
They act like the animals that have raised them and are often aggressive - because that’s what they were taught when they were learning.
We wouldn’t expect them to suddenly learn how to think rationally when they weren’t taught it.

Her behaviour is awful but as a PP said, OP never punished DH by kicking him out so why punish the DD for doing what she’s been taught to do.

DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

These two things stood out for me.

Your daughter is a nasty bully. There's no condoning her behaviour and the fact that she can apologise to one person demonstrates she knows her behaviour is unacceptable. She counts on YOU to stop your DH punishing her and probably always has.

Regardless of any poor behaviour on your DH's side, he has never hurt her before but she has attacked him badly enough to leave marks 5 times. That's awful. Lots of us had difficult family situations growing up - but we never resorted to attacking people once, let alone five different occasions.

Ultimately:

Tough shit if she has no presents. Giving her a present reinforces that her behaviour was acceptable, which it's not. DH is right - she needs consequences for her actions.

She also needs counselling or to see someone from her anger management issues.

And you need to protect your other children from this environment.

Thank you @JanglyBeads.

The bit re being taught a lesson - I probably didn’t make myself clear. I was saying that’s not the goal, nor should it be presented to DD like that. I was saying that “being taught a lesson” is how punishment works and that we don’t do that in our house.

Natural consequences aren’t “to teach a lesson” - they’re the direct result of someone’s actions. So even if the outcome is the same as punishment, the presentation and thought process behind it is very different and I think that’s really important.

Telling someone they’re bad and need to be taught a lesson is destructive and negative = punishment.

Telling someone their behaviour wasn’t ok and that you’re going to spend the gift money on private therapy is a productive and supportive step, even if DD is unhappy about the decision. It’s not about being vengeful because the behaviour was bad - it’s a direct consequence of their actions and aims to move forward rather than being caught in a spiral of negativity.

I don’t believe in “teaching someone a lesson” - I don’t think it’s constructive.

I hope that makes a bit more sense! I’m very tired and not explaining myself well 😂

People often confuse trauma with ASD or ADHD, so don't be drawn into the armchair diagnosis.

It is clear that there is a lot of dysfunctionality here - could be learned behaviour, could be mental health issues, could be something else. She could just be abusive.

But surely it is clear that this is a cycle that needs to end. I think the Mexico money would be better spent on getting some kind of private help/diagnosis/therapy for her because if she continues like this she could end up in jail (and hopefully not overseas).

I wonder if you have lived with such rage and aggression for so long that you cannot see how absolutely abnormal this is and how damaging it is - your DH behaviour and DDs. It is no way to live. Can you look at getting support for yourself?

For context I have a DD with ASD and ADHD. I have seen a lot of upset and rage but in my (admittedly not extensive) experience others are collatarel damage in a meltdown and not a target.

I feel sick reading some of these hysterical replies, calling your DD a "bitch", diagnosing her with serious personality disorders

No-one is diagnosing her with anything, but as a PP said she needs assessments by a consultant.

The point in suggesting what's going on is that a diagnosis/name then suggests ways in which what's going on can be successfully treated.

She needs an assessment for everything- what matters is what she does in the meantime before she gets that assessment.

Also someone needs insight to an extent to get much from seeing a GP/consultant (and definitely therapist.) Because it's primarily what she says that will decide what they diagnose her with or what they do.

In an ideal world she would let someone like OP go along to her first appointment with a consultant/GP to help describe what's going on.

Given her behaviour to everyone, she absolutely does need a psychiatric assessment. That's not to say she has a serious personality disorder, or is neurodivergent, but it recognised that her behaviour is consistent with some of these

Exactly. She may not have any of those diagnoses at all but this behaviour needs investigating. Years ago, when diagnoses weren't available people suffered immensely because noone understood their behaviour and they didnt get the help they needed. It needs to at least be ruled out.

For your daughter’s sake, if no one else’s, you have to stick with your husband.

She manages her temper at work and uni, but verbally and physically assault her boyfriend and parents? That’s inexcusable.

This may be partly learned behaviour, but it still needs addressing, because if she’d kicked someone else in the balls or over the head, she could have come out far worse. No one but her family would be putting up wit her.

What would be the consequence if you heard your son screaming at her boyfriend like she did? If she has a problem with rejection, she needs help, because no girl that treats my son like she does would be welcome in my home.

Long and short of it is - that money only pays for counselling and until she is ready to engage, she gets nothing more than necessities.

Don't create a bigger problem by allowing her to be rewarded for assaulting you. Next in line are her siblings.

Pretty sure that's the definition of an angry bitch.