Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

(Yes but the Mexico trip financial contribution is rather relevant to Monday and anticipation of Monday)

Whether she has a mental health condition, a hormone imbalance or what, it doesn’t make a difference to the fact she should most certainly not go to Mexico. She was abusive to her boyfriend over the phone and then physically assaulted both her parents. What if she blows up like that abroad? She needs help and I agree that the funds you were going to use for Mexico need to go towards private medical help for her to see what is causing these outbursts and how to control them.

your dh clearly has a role to play in this too. Your daughter remembers an abusive childhood which has obviously had an impact. Also knowing how she reacts, he went into her room twice when she had gone there for space. He didn’t help the situation at all and hugely contributed to its escalation.

I think paying for the trip to Mexico is slightly a red herring

The problem with the trip away with BFs family is not who pays for it, it's what if she explodes on holiday, attacks BF, his parents get involved, a stranger rings the police.

THAT is what would frighten me, really really frighten me if I was her parent. I think you and DH are worried about the wrong thing here.

I think you have to somehow get DD to understand that she can't go on this trip until she able to control her outbursts/realise the red mist is coming & develop techniques to help herself

The trip could be a reward if you put the flight money towards therapy in the new year & she really engages with it. And I would take her passport off her until you are sure she can manage.

Stop making excuses for your adult daughter. She is violent and abusive and needs to realise actions have consequences. Pack her bags, put them outside and change the locks.
Make her understand he behaviour is unacceptable and criminal

A psychologist isn't suitable in this case. A psychotherapist certainly not, they cannot diagnose and there are certainly diagnoses that need to be considered.

She may be referred to one after assessment and then she would know how to find suitable therapy for her situation.

That was to @jolies1

@SpidersAreShitheads - your response to the OP is incredibly wise and thoughtful.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy - I agree with the previous posters who have suggested that the flight money goes towards private therapy instead, but that, if your dd chooses to use her savings to buy the flights, she shouldn't have her Uni support money taken away. However, I also think you should be very direct with her and say that the only reason that is happening is that you don't want to damage her education, but that if she ever physically assaults anyone in the family, the police will be called. I would also be very clear that she cannot behave like that in Mexico, if she doesn't want to end up in a Mexican jail, and that she is risking every relationship in her life by behaving like this towards her family and friends.

i was a troubled teen due to a difficult relationship with my mum. Myself and most of my friends were ‘battered’ as we refer to it also emotionally and verbally abused.
i was pretty wild but terrified of my mum and dad so it would of NEVER escalated to what has occurred in your home.
however I wasn’t doing really well at uni and working 2 jobs I released all my anger abusing drugs and alcohol and getting involved with older boys.
i think you can safely draw the conclusion that her behaviour is definitely down to her upbringing/relationship with her dad.
Theres been ups and downs with me and my mum but she’s downstairs making soup now whilst I’m putting the baby down and we will have a lovely afternoon.
Try not to put to much on what’s happened she will come back to you eventually.
Great that dh is getting help for his anger in years to come that will show her he was trying to be a better dad/person.
Id say she wanted him to hit her so she could justify the way she feels towards him.
Does she know her behaviour has been created through her dad’s behaviour towards her. That needs acknowledging. There is tons of research as to why siblings who have the same parents live in the same house, one is deeply effected and the others seem fine. The others aren’t fine.
She probably needs a short sharp shock
I think you need to stick with Dh on this one, she’s an adult now, just because your childhood was a bit tough does not then grant you the right to act the way she does, her bf for example getting shouted out.
As for the slap
Let’s have it right he acted in self defence.

She seems to be able to control herself where there'd be actual consequences for her violence and aggression so work/uni but with others she doesn't seem to care?
Incredulous at DD is absolutely beside herself that he slapped her. She keeps telling me she can't believe it. Well if no-ones ever defended themselves against her or challenged her I can imagine it's been a shock.
Interested to see if she'd continue this behaviour in Mexico, the police there would absolutely not be lenient!

That is tough. I am mum to a ND daughter, and there are elements of her behaviour that she has little control over. As a result she has few friends. She can also like most kids be a total cow bag. She has no control over where she dysregulates. School, home, out and about, if she is triggered she goes boom.

The fact your daughter seems to have some degree of control over where and who she explodes does need to be noted. She can either mask in certain scenarios, or there is an element of picking and choosing when she can get away with her behaviour. This needs to be unpicked.

I think your daughter needs to understand just how serious this is. I would not offer any financial assistance for Mexico, but repurpose the money to get some assessments and tests done with some tailored therapy. Any further financial assistance for her would be dependent on her cooperating with this fully.

I would also be crystal clear with the parents just who they are taking on holiday. Behaviours like this often ramp up when out if routine and when there is alcohol around. They need to be prepared for the fallout. I would not take her in their shoes.

You mention PCOS, do these outbursts link with her menstrual cycle at all?

Really tough situation. Maybe you just need to park it for Christmas. Dont give the tickets, but dont make any final decisions on anything until the New Year.

This OP.
What if she assaults her BF over there?
And his family or worse, other people, see it and call the police?

This!

She has behaved very badly. Mind you, both of them sound appalling at managing their emotions. What a horrible situation all round.

So she manages to keep a lid on work and uni behaviour, but has had massive blow outs with friends and BF

Well surprise surprise, she can somehow manage to control her behaviour when there may be actual real life consequences such as losing her job or getting kicked out of uni. She is abusive, at least verbally to her boyfriend. But again I bet she can also reign it in when around his parents. NO way would I be paying for her to go to Mexico. May she can get some therapy session or anger management help for Christmas instead. She is assaulting people. Someone is going to (rightly) call the police at some point.

Sounds very upsetting for all involved and very intense. Is there any opportunity for a pause? So is it possible for all parties to agree that yes a terrible incident has taken place and on date we are going to sit down together and talk about this calmly. This may sound like pie in the sky but I think from reading your post you have other children too and Christmas to get through.

It sounds like Borderline traits/personality doesn't it @MarmiteMakesMeHappy ? It can be somewhat hereditary so maybe DH has a milder version.

Did she suffer trauma, bullying etc?

I was bullied a lot amongst other things and I ended up with some borderline traits (rejection is the worst thing maybe.)

Some people find Dialectical Behaviour Therapy helps- there's a workbook but it's better to work with a therapist than on your own. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Dialectical-Behavior-Therapy-Skills-Workbook/dp/1684034582

DBT did nothing for me but I had EMDR- it processes the underlying trauma and has had all sorts of positive knock on effects on my life.

I'd be throwing my husband out.
I would then be cancelling all holidays and focusing on getting dd help.
What he did is unforgivable and I wouldn't have him in the house.
Your dd needs help.
Your marriage should be over and dd be your priority.
He's a violent controlling bastard. No wonder she has problems.
Starr by showing her you won't choose him over her.

The mistake he made (the crevat perhaps) was forbidding an 18 yer old to fly to Mexico with her own money.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy , I'm so sorry to hear about this. I haven't read all the responses to you, but I do wonder if your DD is on the autistic spectrum. I know that invariably comes up on threads like this, but her behaviour really does sound very much like my DS's when he was that age. What you're describing is a meltdown. I remember standing in my bedroom once with him just grabbing everything he could lay his hands on and hurling it at me. In the end I called the police. He calmed down instantly and sat and waited for them. They talked to him about the consequences he would face if it happened again - and asked me if I wanted it to have consequences this time. I said no. I do think calling the police is easier when it's a teenage boy who's being violent, but even so, bear in mind that you have this option when things get out of control. I have had to do it twice and both times the police were really calm and sensitive to all our needs

Your DH's threatened punishment is unrealistic. I completely understand why he would want to try to stop her going to Mexico but he can't - he can only refuse to fund the trip himself. He may fear that backing down on the threatened punishment will undermine him but over time – and after many painful scenes – I have learned that you actually have more authority if you show that you are capable of rethinking what was said in anger. I would suggest that he say: 'Your behaviour was so out of order and made me so angry and upset that I threatened to do this. However, I have thought about it and decided that it's not something I wish to pursue. But there WILL still be consequences for your behaviour [in your case, OP, that your husband doesn't give her money for her trip]. '

I do think your DD needs medical support and your task after Christmas should be to try to get her to seek that out: she should be able to access counselling at university, if she chooses to do so. You and DH need to talk seriously about how you want your relationship with DD to progress and what you need to do to have a productive relationship with her in the future. Angry as he is, he still loves her and needs to recognise that, although her behaviour is unacceptable, there are issues underlying it that need tackling and she will do that best with a supportive family behind her. That doesn't mean he can't enforce some consequences for her behaviour - but ultimately as the adults you have to look at the bigger picture here, and take a longer view.

In terms of Christmas, I would focus on reassuring your other DCs and making it as special as you can for them. Your DD and DH can stay on the sidelines if necessary - but make it clear to both of them that you will not tolerate any kind of upset on Christmas Day.

My heart really does go out to you, OP. I have been in your shoes; I have thrown myself between DS and DH to try to stop the physical fights. All I can say is that although there have been times when I have thought our family was destroyed, somehow we have always managed to patch it up, and things are much better now. But that has involved a huge amount of forgiving on our part - and, I truly think, on DS's part too.

The root cause of your daughter's emotional problems is her father's rage when she was growing up. Her father should role model the right path in life to her given the emotional problems they clearly both have. Rather than exerting control and punishing her, he should access private therapy and work on himself. If he can learn to be less reactive and to grow emotionally, this would show his daughter that self-growth is possible, and she would be more likely to take this path herself. If she didn't get on with a previous therapist, she needs to keep trying. You could possibly also all benefit from reading up on Karpman's drama triangle and reflect on how you are enacting these roles within the family. Painting your daughter as the 'bad' one, is not really conducive to your growth and healthy connection as a family.

Agree with this 100%. This could be a disaster waiting to happen and she could get into very serious trouble if this happens abroad.

I would be putting the money towards psychological help and explaining very calmly that you are concerned about her and that this needs to be dealt with. Her having a holiday is the least of your worries if this behaviour escalates because it could potentially ruin her career, future relationships and her whole life. I'm a bit surprised you are more concerned about her having a holiday than the ramifications for the rest of her life, going forward.

I worked on a psych ward for over a decade and her behaviour does sound indicative of EUPD, I am not saying she has it, as I don't know her but the indicators you describe are there which are worth investigating further. DBT is currently the best treatment for that. You have more serious concerns to deal with here than a trip to Mexico and the sooner this is addressed, the sooner it will help all of you as a family. Family therapy may also be something you would all benefit from.

Absolutely: if we were talking about an 18 year old teenage son instead of an 18 year old teenage daughter, the advice would be very different on here.

Violence is violence, and OP, your daughter is abusive and violent. She is going to end up in a world of trouble if she doesn't address it now. Brushing it under the carpet and waving goodbye as she heads off on holiday to Mexico via YOUR family's financial support and well wishes is not the answer.

OP, you need to support your husband in this. Your daughter needs help, before the police are involved. And frankly, if your daughter had been a strapping 6'3" son, I suspect the police would already be involved with such behaviour.

Autistic family here too (diagnosed) and some family members can act like this.

Additionally, your husband may also have autism. Leading to him not finding healthy ways of dealing with his own personal problems in the past. He’s also pretty black and white on this issue which may not be helpful.

Hopefully the heat can dissipate a little and you can talk to your daughter again and make your point about how unacceptable her behaviour was. I think not paying for the flights is enough- your husband’s plan would be vindictive and not conducive to improving relations between the two of them.

I don't think anyone is an 'angry bitch' who is abusive to others for no reason at all.

I know people with younger autistic teens who act exactly like this. Many don't, but some do. Autism is definitely a possibility here.